Time Travel in PoA (was: Re: Lupin is James and Time Travel)

Sun Dec 29 08:06:52 UTC 2002

No: HPFGUIDX 48930

Laurasia,

Amazingly (IMO), you wrote about 3 types of time travel, gave some 
examples and then made some conclusions.

Laurasia's 3 theories of time travel are:

Laurasia wrote:
> 1) That every time one goes back in time they actually travel into
>    a parallel universe (that is, they create a loop of the world 
>    they were in). The future forms of a person don't exist in the
>    initial world.
> 2) That every time one goes back in time they actually travel into
>    a parallel universe (creating a loop). The future forms of a
>    person don't exist in the initial world, but other people
>    (person-X) takes on the roles of what they will do in the
>    future. 
> 3) The third theory of time-travel is much simpler. That is,
>    everything happened only once. When you go back in time you
>    don't enter a parallel world, you go back to the initial one,
>    and future forms on one self are free to interact with the
>    events of the past.

Laurasia wrote: 
> The Time-turner (presumably) can't discriminate if when you go
> back in time you will be in a life-threatening situation, so
> should treat all the same

I completely agree with you on this.

All this discussion started because I was trying to establish the 
possibility that Lupin (James) was really the one who Harry saw 
casting the Patronus when he was about to be kissed. I wish to go 
back to this, and I would appreciate it if you can explain to me how 
the loop started (using your Theory number 3) as you say you think 
suits best. 

Laurasia wrote:
About Theory 1
> So, if you take this to be the type of time travel used in PoA, it
> means that in the Buckbeak was initially executed, as Future Harry
> and Hermione didn't exist yet. This phases no real problems as
> H2/H2 rescue him in the second existence and the actions of the
> executioner match what was originally heard anyway. However, it
> would also mean that Harry was indeed soul-sucked by the Dementor.
> This is where this theory of time-travel doesn't match the events
> of the book, as it would mean that Harry effectively 'died.' Which
> would mean that he couldn't go back in time later to save himself,
> Hermione and Sirius (and consequently the entire rest of the Harry
> Potter novels). This, obviously, suggests that this type of time
> travel doesn't occur with the use of a time-turner.

I agree completely on what you say here (and this is what I was 
trying to point out). The fact that Harry "died" is what made me 
introduce another person (Person-X) in order to correct the 
situation (of Harry's death), but not exactly in the way you stated 
in Theory 2. (Keep reading)

Laurasia wrote:
About Theory 2:
> To translate this into an example, it would mean that H2/H2 didn't
> exist in the initial time span to rescue Buckbeak, but some other
> person (person-X) did it. Then, in the second universe person-X
> didn't have to save Buckbeak, as he was already saved (by H2/H2).
> For the incidents with the Dementors at the Lake, it would mean
> that person-X cast the Patronus in the first universe, then
> stepped aside to let Harry cast it in the second universe. 
>
> Whilst this is a valid form of time-travel, I don't agree with it
> in the PoA sense, because it asks the question: Who is person-X???
> As far as we're aware the only people who know Hermione has a time-
> turner is McGonagall and Dumbledore. Dumbledore's amused actions
> at Buckbeaks appeal (where he stalls Macnair those few extra
> seconds that enable H2/H2/BB to escape, the way he has a slightly
> amused tone when Buckbeak's absence is discovered and his comment
> to 'search the skies' imply that he is very well aware that there
> is something fishy going on. This could mean that he is person-X
> in the first existence in relation to Buckbeaks's departure. Only,
> he doesn't look remarkably like James Potter to be person-X who
> casts the Patronus. 

To me, Person-X's only mission in his time loop was to save Harry's 
life. Person-X cast the Patronus in the first universe, but stepped 
aside because Harry broke a very important rule (which Hermione and 
Dumbledore insisted he should not do). He set out to see who was the 
person who cast the Patronus. He should NOT have done this. The 
person who cast the Patronus could not risk being seen (even by 
Harry), so he hid. Harry jumps to the conclusion that he cast the 
Patronus in the first place, because no one else appeared while he 
was waiting. He was NOT supposed to be there. Harry, believing he 
was the one that cast the Patronus in the first place, felt 
confident enough to give it a try and succeeded (because he was 
confident he could do it). But he shouldn't have done it, he 
shouldn't be there. The reason Harry and Hermione went back in time 
was to save Buckbeak and Sirius, not to cast the Patronus that saved 
his life.

Dumbledore knows something fishy is going on, we agree. He is such a 
powerful wizard that I sometimes believe he has his own method of 
knowing these kind of events, maybe he has an object through which 
he can see the events of the past he chooses to watch (like the 
Pensieve which he uses to review the memories and thoughts he has 
stored in it), or going back in time without the use of a Time-
Turner, (analogous as when he can disappear without the use of an 
Invisibility Cloak and making no sound at all). (It's really late 
and I can't find the references in canon where Dumbledore tells 
Harry about not needing an Invisibility Cloak to disappear, but if 
you need it, give me time to look it up, and I'll post it later). I 
agree with you that Dumbledore is not the person who cast the 
Patronus.

What I've said in the last two paragraphs is what leads me to 
theorize that the person to cast the Patronus was James (in Lupin's 
body). Person-X hid when Harry got near, why? What problem would 
there be that Harry found out it was Dumbledore, for example, who 
cast the Patronus? Harry is already in a time loop (knows what it 
is), seeing Dumbledore there wouldn't surprise him. 

Seeing Lupin there would be weird as everyone thinks he missed 
drinking the potion that night. I don't think he missed drinking the 
potion, the potion does not prevent him from turning into a 
werewolf, it only gives him self control while he is a werewolf, 
avoiding him to bite another human and to harm himself. Sirius did 
not know that Lupin was drinking the potion (as it was discovered 
recently) and Sirius and Lupin's first chance to talk in 12 years 
was at the Shrieking Shack, where by what Snape said, led everyone 
to believe he didn't drink the potion (Lupin did not clarify if he 
did or didn't drink it). When Lupin transformed, Sirius "Animagate-
ed" into a dog believing it was the only way to save everyone else 
there (as it had always happened in the past while he was around). 
Lupin probably knew (by Dumbledore) that Harry was in danger of 
being kissed by a Dementor and that he had to cast the Patronus to 
save Harry, but Sirius wasn't leaving him alone. Something happened 
that made Sirius appear in human form, in which he was susceptible 
to the Dementors, giving the werewolf a chance to get rid of Sirius 
and cast the Patronus.

Laurasia wrote:
> I often wonder about the use of person-X time-travel, as if
> someone was already there, why go back in the first place? By that
> I mean, if Harry and co. were already saved by mysterious person
> on the other side of the Lake, where is the need to go back and
> save them?? (of course, it should be noted that no-one had any
> idea that they were going to be in need of saving when H2/H2 were
> sent back).

Harry and Hermione do not go back to save Harry, nor for Harry to 
cast the Patronus Charm, they went back to save BB and Sirius. Harry 
should not have run to the lake searching for whoever cast the 
spell. 

Laurasia about Theory 3 explains:
> This one fits the events of PoA much better than either of the two
> described above. Unknown to Harry, Hermione and Ron, future forms
> of Harry and Hermione are simultaneously doing things around the
> school. When they are walking down to visit Hagrid underneath the
> invisibility cloak they hear 'a pair of people hurrying across the
> hall, and a door slamming.' Then, when we hear this event relayed
> from the perspective of H2/H2 it sounds like this: 'Hermione
> seized Harry's arm and dragged him across the hall to the door of
> a broom cupboard; she opened it, pushed him inside amongst the
> buckets and mops, followed him in, then slammed the door behind
> them.' which sounds exactly the same. If you take this form of
> time-travel to be the type used, it means that H2/H2 were hiding
> around Hagrid's hut and were the people who lead Buckbeak to
> safety. It means that Harry was the person (and indeed the *only*
> person) who cast the Patronus at the edge of the Lake. 

Although I completely agree with you about viewing things from a 
different perspective, I uh, I really have trouble seeing how Harry 
is the *only* person *ever* to cast the Patronus. I mean, the first 
time he couldn't cast a Patronus BEFORE going back in time. A loop 
in time doesn't just exist; it must be triggered by some event. The 
Time-Turner triggers these loops. The moment you use the Time-
Turner, you generate a loop, it doesn't matter if you are applying 
theories 1 or 3. If you don't use the Time Turner, you don't create 
a loop, so how could Harry use the Time-Turner if he "died" before 
getting the chance to do it. I feel I'm going back to the same 
problem in Theory 1 which generated Theory 2. Could you please 
explain this to me?

Please keep in mind that Harry did NOT go back to save himself. He 
should NOT have been there. He had another mission. 

PoA. Ch. 21: Hermione's Secret (Page 410)
> "I think I´d better go outside again, you know," said Harry
> slowly. "I can't see what's going on - we don't know when it's
> time"
>
> Hermione looked up. Her expression was suspicious.
>
> "I´m not going to try and interfere," said Harry quickly. "But if
> we don't see what's going on, how're we going to know when it's
> time to rescue Sirius?"
>
> "Well...okay, then... I'll wait here with Buckbeak... but Harry be
> careful - there's a werewolf out there - and the dementors."
>
> (Goes on with Harry running to the lake, waiting for his rescuer
> and casting the Patronus Charm, Hermione and BB run to him)
>
> "What did you do?," she said fiercely, "You said you were only
> going to keep a lookout!"

Thanks!

Sharana