Time Travel in PoA (was: Re: Lupin is James and Time Travel)

[bluesqueak <pipdowns@etchells0.demon.co.uk>]

No: HPFGUIDX 48932

Wading in with my own take on Laurasia's excellent breakdown of 
possible Time Turner universes.

Theory 3: Everything happens only once.

I think, Sharana you are getting confused because you keep looking 
at it from the Point of View of Harry and Hermione, who travel 
through events twice.  Plus you keep seeing the use of the Time 
Turner as non inevitable. By the time Harry and Hermione decide to 
use the TT, they've actually already used it.

Sharana:
> I really have trouble seeing how Harry 
> is the *only* person *ever* to cast the Patronus. I mean, the  
> first time he couldn't cast a Patronus BEFORE going back in time. 
> A loop in time doesn't just exist; it must be triggered by some 
> event. The Time-Turner triggers these loops. The moment you use   
> the Time-
> Turner, you generate a loop, it doesn't matter if you are applying 
> theories 1 or 3. If you don't use the Time Turner, you don't  
> create a loop, so how could Harry use the Time-Turner if he "died" 
> before getting the chance to do it. I feel I'm going back to the 
> same problem in Theory 1 which generated Theory 2. Could you 
> please explain this to me?


Prepare to be confused :0)
In Theory 3 there is not, and never will be, a sequence of events 
where Harry and Hermione did not go back in time. There is only one 
world. Harry 2 and Hermione 2 are always present in it.

Because Harry 2 and Hermione 2 are present during the events of 
Buckbeak's execution, the SS, and the Dementors, by the time Harry 1 
and Hermione 1 get to the Hospital scene, the loop is already in 
existence. It is not created by the Time Turner. The TT is just the 
mechanical means to keep the loop going.

Remember, in Theory 3 there is only one world, and HH2 are always 
present in it. If Harry had been killed by Dementors, the loop would 
not exist. Not only would HH have been unavailable to create a loop 
(they'd have been dead), there would have been no *need* for a loop. 
Events had panned out badly, but that would have been the sequence 
of events.

The physicist Igor Novikov  has done some work on Time Travel 
paradoxes. Basically, the only behaviours that work out 
mathematically is when events are absolutely self consistent. Harry 
wouldn't be available to go back in time to save his life *unless* 
he'd saved his life. The only self consistent sequence of events is 
where Harry 2 saves Harry 1, so that Harry 1 lives, is available to 
go back via the Time Turner, becomes Harry 2, and saves the life of 
Harry 1.

But (and this is the seriously confusing bit) you keep thinking that 
there must be a `before', a sequence of events where the TT hasn't 
been used yet. That's because you're seeing it from Harry and 
Hermione's POV as they go through the loop. If you had hidden at 
Hogwarts just before the loop starts, and followed events through, 
you would have seen two Harry's and two Hermione's until HH1 travel 
back in time, leaving HH2 as the only Harry and Hermione. 


The use of the TT isn't caused by HH1 deciding to use it, it's 
caused by HH2 having *already* travelled back in time to save 
Buckbeak and Sirius, creating a series of events which required them 
to travel back in time in order that events be self consistent, 
which creates a series of events requiring them to travel back in 
time in order that events be self consistent,  thus creating a 
series of events which need them to travel back in time
 and so on. 

I know it's seriously confusing, but there is no `before'. Harry and 
Hermione always used the TT. There's no sequence of events where 
they didn't.

Hope this helps

Pip!Squeak