Time travel in PoA (was: Re: Remus is James and Time Travel)

[bluesqueak <pipdowns@etchells0.demon.co.uk>]

No: HPFGUIDX 48951

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sharana.geo 
<sharana.geo at y...>" <sharana.geo at y...> wrote:
> Pip!Squeak,
> 
> I appreciate the time you are taking to answer my question.
> 
> Believe it or not I understand completely all the explanations you 
> gave me, but I believe I have not been able to express clearly the 
> reason why I am having trouble accepting your point of view of 
> theory 3. Let's see if I manage it this time.
> 
> Pip!Squeak wrote:
> > Prepare to be confused :0)
> > In Theory 3 there is not, and never will be, a sequence of  
> > eventswhere Harry and Hermione did not go back in time. There is 
> > only one world. Harry 2 and Hermione 2 are always present in it.
>
Sharana:
> It doesn't confuse me  :-)
> 
> This is exactly what I cannot accept. I can see no logical 
> explanation to it. In all my life, I have never been able to 
> accept something like this. It is something too sci-fi to me (Keep 
> reading to understand why).

Pip!Squeak:
Yes. It's what scientists tend to call 'counter intuitive'. It's 
something that works in a completely opposite way to everyday 
experience. Happens more often than you think; for example, if the 
pilot of a space shuttle in orbit wants to catch up with a 
spacecraft ahead of him, s/he actually has to slow down.
 
> 
> Pip!Squeak wrote:
> > Because Harry 2 and Hermione 2 are present during the events of 
> > Buckbeak's execution, the SS, and the Dementors, by the time 
> > Harry1 and Hermione 1 get to the Hospital scene, the loop is 
> > already in existence. It is not created by the Time Turner. The 
> > TT is just the mechanical means to keep the loop going.
> 
Sharana:
> If the TT does not create the loop, what does?
> 
> I cannot see how a time loop just exists; there must be something 
> that generates it. 
> 
> For me to accept theory 3 as valid, I just need an answer to this 
> question. What generates the time loop? God?
> 

Pip!Squeak
Leaving Harry and Hermione aside for the moment; a much simpler 
example. 

You are a scientist who is testing a time machine to see if it 
works. You decide to send a billiard ball back in time 10 seconds. 
While you're setting up the machine you put the billiard ball in 
front of it, ready to pop it in the machine as soon as you hit the 
switch.

While you're setting things up, a billiard ball suddenly comes 
flying out of the time machine. It hits the ball you'd left in front 
of it, which then ricochets off a wall and bounces straight into the 
time machine. You are so startled by this, that you accidently hit 
the 'on' switch, the time machine works, and the ball in the machine 
vanishes.

You are left standing, staring at the one remaining billiard ball
(the one which came flying out of the time machine), which, you now 
realise, is the one you just sent back through time...

What created the time loop? The availability of a machine to create 
a time loop. But when did you decide to hit the switch? You never 
did. There never was a point where you originally decided to hit the 
switch. Hitting the switch was always an accident, caused by the 
result of your experiment.
> 
<Snip>
> 
> If it isn't the TT, I need to understand how the time loop (that 
> makes Harry cast a Patronus to save his own life) is created. 
> 
> If you answer me something like "a time distortion is what 
> generates the loop," then I must ask you what generates the time 
> distortion.

There are lots of time loops in PoA; it's just that most of them are 
extremely unexciting. Hermione goes through a loop every time she 
doubles a class or an exam. And yes, the TT is the mechanism by 
which she can loop herself through time, in the sense that it 
provides the 'energy' for the time loop.

But, like the example with the billiard ball above, the point of 
decision is not where you think it is. There is no 'start'. There 
never was a moment when you decided to hit the switch. There never 
is a moment when someone realises that 'ah, if only we could send 
Harry back through time, he won't die'. There is no need for Mr X. 

Events happen the way they do, because that is the way the two 
Harrys and Hermione's ended up interacting. The time travelling 
billiard ball is only in the time machine in the first place because 
it got hit by its time travelled self. Harry only travels through 
time because his time travelled self saved his life.


<Snip>
> 
> To me Harry cast the Patronus because he did something very 
> dangerous, which he was told not to do, he ran to the lake eager 
to 
> see who cast the Patronus that had saved him (wishing to see his 
> father). He wasn't supposed to do that, he wasn't supposed to be 
> there. He got lucky he thought about casting the Patronus himself, 
> at that moment, if he hadn't succeeded in casting the Patronus, or 
> if he just sat there another minute, waiting for someone else to 
> appear; he would have screwed up his life. 
> 
> As Hermione says (PoA, Page 398), nobody is supposed to change 
time, 
> it is one of the most important wizarding laws. McGonagall told 
> Hermione: "awful things have happened when wizards have meddled 
with 
> time...Loads of them ended up killing their past or future selves 
by 
> mistake!" This is the main reason why it was made a Law, to 
protect 
> the life of all wizards.
> 
> Harry made the same mistake these wizards (the ones McGonagall 
talks 
> about) did. He changed his past without fully realizing the 
> consequences of what he was doing (he was just hoping to see his 
> dad); only he was lucky enough to correct his mistake, without 
> realizing it.
> 

No, he did not change his past. He didn't run to where he wasn't 
supposed to be. He ran to exactly where he was supposed to be.

 Hermione thought it was vitally important they not be seen because 
at that point she believed that their time travelling selves had 
*not* been seen. She didn't realise that Harry had seen himself 
earlier (but had misunderstood what he'd seen).


> When any of you manage to answer me my question on what makes this 
> time loop exist in the first place, then I will believe that there 
> are two valid explanations to this time loop. (Believe me; I am 
> really, really trying to understand it)
> 
> In advanced, I really appreciate your patience.

I suppose the closest I can get to an answer is 'where does a circle 
start? Where does a circle end? What is the largest number? What is 
the smallest number?'

It's very difficult to realise that some things have no beginning, 
no end, and that infinity does exist. 

But it does.

Pip!Squeak