Time travel in PoA (was: Re: Remus is James and Time Travel)

Sun Dec 29 23:59:29 UTC 2002

No: HPFGUIDX 48970

Sharana wrote:

>All this discussion started because I was trying to establish the 
>possibility that Lupin (James) was really the one who Harry saw 
>casting the Patronus when he was about to be kissed. I wish to go 
>back to this

Even if the theory that James-is-Remus is true, and we assume, for 
the moment, that we are taking person-X time-travel to be true, and 
that person-X is actually James- How does James, who has taken on the 
characteristics of Remus get rid of them for a second to cast the 
Patronus (without a wand)? You also have to take into account the 
fact that Remus was actually transformed into a werewolf at this very 
moment running in the forest. Unless you are implying that James-as-
Remus firstly ran around as a werewolf deactivated the transformation 
into a wolf, then counter-charmed the spell that made him into Remus, 
went back in time and cast the Patronus as James (all without a 
wand), then changed back into Remus again for the next day??? (Which, 
of course is entirely plausible, as this is the HP universe we're 
talking about.. :D But to me it seems to much... ;D )

Dumbledore says that Lupin is "currently deep in the forest, unable 
to tell anyone anything" (Chapter 21) which implies that he has 
remained a transformed werewolf for the entire events of the night.

Also take these quotes:
"There was a terrible snarling noise. Lupin's head was lengthening. 
So was his body. His shoulders were hunching. Hair was sprouting 
visibly on his face and hands, which were curling into clawed paws... 
The werewolf reared, snapping its long jaws" (Chapter 20)
"As long as I take it [the wolfsbane potion] in the week preceding 
the full moon, I keep my mind when I transform ... I am able to curl 
up in my office, a harmless wolf..." (Chapter 18)

These imply that Lupin does actually become a actual wolf, not an 
upright humanoid wolfman. Regardless of whether he had taken his 
potion and has kept his mind it clearly states that he has 'paws,' so 
he can't hold a wand, whether he wants to or not. Also, take into 
account that he doesn't even have his wand- "Pettigrew had dived for 
Lupin's dropped wand." Pettigrew uses it to knock out Ron and 
Crookshanks. Then, after that, Harry disarms Pettigrew; "Lupin's wand 
flew high into the air and out of sight." Which seems to take it out 
of the equation for the rest of the night's events (and indeed the 
rest of the book- there's no more mention of it ever again). 

Taking all this into account, are you still so sure that James as 
Remus-the-Werewolf could've done everything, with no wand and no 
hands? Whilst the idea of person-X time travel is a valid theory, to 
me all that evidence suggests that even if there was a person-X, it 
wasn't James Potter. Which, therefore, leaves the question of "Who is 
person-X??" wide open again. And until someone finds someone who 
looks "extraordinarily like James Potter" other than Harry Potter, 
IMO 'person-X' is actually Harry himself, which means that Harry was 
*there*, which means that it is actually Type 3 (post #48887) time-
travel.

Sharana wrote:

>and I would appreciate it if you can explain to me how 
>the loop started (using your Theory number 3) as you say you think 
>suits best.

Sharana also wrote:

>If the TT does not create the loop, what does?
>I cannot see how a time loop just exists; there must be something 
that generates it. 
>For me to accept theory 3 as valid, I just need an answer to this 
question. What generates the time loop? God?

I suppose all it takes is to look at time from another perspective. 
Because Harry and Hermione live the events twice and we are relayed 
the night through their eyes it's easy to get the impression that 
time has happened twice. The way we see it, Harry and Hermione live 
through three hours, then go back and live through them again. What 
Theory 3 (post #48887) says is that time happened only once. In short-
 there is no loop, as such. The idea to understanding Type 3 time-
travel is to take bboy_mn's take on time-travel- that is, time only 
moves forward (post #48944). The key to understanding Type 3 time-
travel completely is to accept that there is *no* loop, everything 
happened once, once only.

Take the idea that time progresses as a continuous unstoppable force 
and the use of a time-turner doesn't create a loop where time is 
reversed, it merely deposits whatever the fine gold chain is around 
back in time. There is no time-loop where time repeats itself. Harry 
and Hermione's lives continue on except that the world they are 
living in is *physically* what happened 3 hours ago. Not a loop of 
time which duplicates the events up until then, *the actual events.* 
Because you are still mentioning time-loops, I think that you don't 
fully understand what Type 3 time-travel entails.  Take the evidence 
I presented earlier that suggests that time is singular and happened 
once only-

>'This is three hours ago, and we are walking down to Hagrid's,' said 
>Hermione. 'We just heard ourselves leaving ...' Which suggests that 
>it is a singular time existence.

>"And then came the howling, and this time they could hear Hagrid's 
>words through his sobs." Which suggests that they are experiencing 
>the same event from a different perspective, not merely a new event.

>"And then it hit him - he understood. He hadn't seen his father - he 
>had seen himself -" Which also suggests that it was a singular time 
>existence.

Also, I'm bringing direct attention to this quote: 
>' They heard a last pair of people hurrying across the Hall, and a 
door slamming.' 
It's taken from when Harry Ron and Hermione sneak down to Hagrid's 
before Buckbeak's appeal. When the reader first encounters this, it 
means nothing- the trio were checking to hear if the Entrance Hall 
was deserted before they snuck out. But, then, once we take into 
account that there is actually two Hermione and Harry's at this 
moment in time take the same event relayed from H2/H2's perspective: 
>'Hermione seized Harry's arm and dragged him across the hall to the 
door of a broom
>cupboard; she opened it, pushed him inside amongst the buckets and 
>mops, followed him in, then slammed the door behind them.'
To me, this proves that Harry and Hermione existed in the same time-
frame twice- time happened once, but they were in it twice. To me, it 
*proves* that JKR has used singular time existence- because H2/H2 
*were* there the first time. This wasn't a matter of them going 
through their actions, then being transported to a duplicated loop- 
they were *there.* 

Sharana wrote:

>But for now, by canon (and what I stated in the message you 
>responded me to), it is easier for me to understand that things 
>happened the way I explained in the message you just replied to me 
>from, than to accept the fact that a time loop exists just because 
>it does; and that the person to cast the Patronus (even the first 
>time) is Harry, to me that just doesn't make sense.

But what if you accept that there is no time-loop, and these were the 
actual events? If there is no loop, and time happened only once there 
is no 'first time' for someone to cast the Patronus- it was the 
*only* time, and we know for sure it was Harry- we saw him do it.

Sharana wrote: 

>To me Harry cast the Patronus because he did something very 
>dangerous, which he was told not to do, he ran to the lake eager to 
>see who cast the Patronus that had saved him (wishing to see his 
>father). He wasn't supposed to do that, he wasn't supposed to be 
>there. He got lucky he thought about casting the Patronus himself, 
>at that moment, if he hadn't succeeded in casting the Patronus, or 
>if he just sat there another minute, waiting for someone else to 
>appear; he would have screwed up his life. 

Or, instead, if you accept a singular time-existence, he didn't 
change time at all- he simply experienced what he had already 
witnessed, but from the other side of the lake. There was no person-X-
 it was Harry all along.

And another reason I have trouble accepting the person-X time-travel 
theory is because I always wonder what happened to person-X. If 
indeed, there was a person-X, where did he get to??? Shouldn't Harry 
have seen him cast the Patronus- he was hidden well enough??? I 
suppose apart from the question "Who is person-X?" the other reason I 
can't accept person-X time travel in these circumstances is 
because "What happened to him the second time?" is another unanswered 
question. My solution is to accept that there was no 'second-time' 
and for that to happen, I need to accept a singular time-existence.

I hope that with that explanation you can understand better the 
implications of a singular time existence- no loops required.

~<(Laurasia)>~