Time Travel

[sharana.geo <sharana.geo@yahoo.com>]

No: HPFGUIDX 48989

Hi,

Laurasia, great graphics!!  Wish I had a web page so I could do same 
kind of stuff...

I wish to clarify (again) that I DO understand that there is only 
one timeline, that I've used the "time loop" phrase to refer to the 
way H&H "travel" to the past. My problem isn't understanding it, my 
problem is accepting it. 

Please remember that English is not my mother language, it's Spanish 
(I explained this in my first post). Sometimes I have difficulty 
choosing my words to express my self. I may make a wrong choice of 
words. (Witch at times, may make me sound a bit harsh for witch I 
apologize). But I do not have problems understanding English, and if 
I don't know the meaning of a word, I look it up in the Dictionary. 
So there are times when I choose to try to express myself using the 
words or phrases you write out for me. For example:

Kristen wrote:
>There is nothing in programming that could compare to this because
> no program can use the exact same resource in a single thread with
> one copy having foreknowledge of the other

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this, but I was thinking about 
recursive programming, and I meant it as an analogy for a similar 
thinking process. Not to be taken in a literal way. 




Annemehr wrote:
> I think maybe where you are getting stuck is because of the nature
> of cause and effect. Normally, a cause has to happen before or at
> least during the effect. 

Yes, my problem has always been accepting (not understanding) that 
the effect happens before the cause.



Laurasia wrote:
> Even if the theory that James-is-Remus is true, and we assume, for
> the moment, that we are taking person-X time-travel to be true,
> and that person-X is actually James- How does James, who has taken
> on the characteristics of Remus get rid of them for a second to
> cast the Patronus (without a wand)? You also have to take into
> account the fact that Remus was actually transformed into a 
> werewolf at this very moment running in the forest. Unless you are
> implying that James-as-Remus firstly ran around as a werewolf
> deactivated the transformation into a wolf, then counter-charmed
> the spell that made him into Remus, went back in time and cast the
> Patronus as James (all without a wand), then changed back into
> Remus again for the next day??? (Which,
> of course is entirely plausible, as this is the HP universe we're
> talking about.. :D But to me it seems to much... ;D )

You're right. Harry wouldn't think a werewolf is extremely familiar 
to him. I didn't think about that. But that doesn't directly point 
Harry as Person-X. How do you know that there isn't a Lupin2, who 
appeared in human form in his own "time loop"?



bboy_mn wrote:
> See, the problem I have is the belief that someone had to "REDO a
> period of time".
>
> The history of the world only occurs once. It's never redone. It
> may be re-written, but it is never redone at least not in
> conscientious, honorable, safe, and sanely applied time travel. 
> (Cut)
> It is only when you start in the future and attempt to go back that
> you get this dual history phenomena. If you just let history play
> out, you realize that H2/H2 always have been and always will be
> there during that three hours. It's a historical fact. When Harry
> and Hermoine use the time turner, that doesn't create history, it
> only explains why history played out the way it did.
>
> It is because there can only be one and only one history of the
> world, that time travel is so dangerous. If your sudden appearance
> in the time line alters event that are already document proven
> history. Then the world of physics is thrown into chaos. The
> foundation of the whole universe becomes destablized. It's like a
> bomb going off in the fabric of time. Very dangerous business,
> this time travel. Harry and Hermione do not alter any documented
> history. In the end, all they have done is confirmed or perhaps
> documented how and why history played out the first and only time.

bboy_mn has expressed here what many of you have said (I copied his 
post because it's the one I found): 
> The history of the world only occurs once. It's never redone.



One of the key aspects in Theory 3 is that H&H2 do not change what 
happens, but are the reason to explain what happens to H&H1. I'll 
put it in different words: 

The existence of H&H2 does not change the outcome.

So:

No matter what H&H2 do, it is what they are supposed to do.

So, as bboy_mn put it:

History can't be changed.

So I conclude:

Fate is written.

OK. This raises a few questions:

1.- Why is it called a Time Turner? 

After all there is only one timeline. What's the point of turning 
it? (Whatever that means!).

2.- What happened with: "It is our choices, not our abilities who
    make us who we are" ? 

These are Dumbledore's words. What I do and what happens in my life 
has a lot to do with who I am. For example: If I am a shy person, I 
will never work up the courage to tell a guy how much I like him, 
and in consequence I will never get the chance to marry him (he'll 
never know I'm interested). So as I see it, Dumbledore is suggesting 
that we have a choice to decide how our future will be. We have a 
choice to decide our fate. It isn't imposed. I can decide to risk it 
and tell the guy I like him and see what happens. It is a matter of 
decision, not fate.

3.- If H&H2 serve the purpose to explain what happens to H&H1, and
    they can't change the outcome, then why is there so much fuss
    about not being seen? Why bother to make a law against the use
    of the TT? Why is it one of the most important wizarding laws?
    Why is breaking this law punished by something so extreme like
    sending the offender to Azkaban?

As Laurasia said about Hermione's class schedule, she was seen, she 
wasn't punished because she had McGonagall's and MoM's permision to 
use the TT. 

Isn't this a great tool for students? I mean, there would be no need 
for students to fail any exams, in my studying experiences, I have 
failed some exams because I didn't have enough time to understand a 
concept, or I didn't understand the class, or maybe I was sick and 
couldn't go to the class. Why not give this second chance to the 
rest of the students. I believe that the main goal of a student is 
to learn, not just to pass exams. 

What is so dangerous about the TT? after all, you can't change the 
outcome, so the following canon (PoA, US paperback) quotes do not 
make any sense:

C1: "You must not be seen. Miss Granger, you know the law - you know
    what is at stake... You-must-not be-seen". (page 393)

C2: "It's called a Time-Turner," Hermione whispered, "and I got it
    from Professor McGonagall, she made me swear I wouldn't tell
    anyone. She had to write all sorts of letters to the MoM so I
    could have one. She had to tell them that I was a model student,
    and that I'd never, ever use it for anything except my
    studies..." (page393-394)

C3: "Harry, what do you think you'd do if you saw yourself bursting
    into Hagrid's house?" said Hermione.
    "I'd - I'd think I'd gone mad," said Harry, "or I'd think there
    was some Dark Magic going on ---"
    "Exactly! You wouldn't understand, you might even attack
    yourself! Don't you see? Professor McGonagall told me what awful
    things have happened when wizards have meddled with time...
    Loads of them ended up killing their past or future selves by
    mistake!"

Laurasia wrote about this:
> I went through the Chapter 21; "Hermione's Secret' and I found
> several different reasons why time-turned people must not be seen
> in each individual circumstance.
>
> "You must not be seen."
>
> He refers to 'the law.' The only other reference we have to the
> time-travelling law is from Hermione. She says: "We're breaking
> one of the most important wizarding laws! Nobody's supposed to
> change time, nobody! You heard Dumbledore, if we're seen - "

Not supposed to change time doesn't mean they can't do it.
What about the cause-effect law? If you see yourself you may think 
it's Dark Magic and kill yourself.
What is it at stake?

Laurasia wrote:
> The law is pretty much- No-one can change time, regardless of the
> circumstances. Dumbledore mentions the law, and tells them not to
> be seen. So, essentially, Dumbledore expects them to have to
> change time, and is really saying- You're going to have to break
> the rules big time here, just don't get caught doing it!  If
> anyone sees you changing time you're going to be sent of to
> Azkaban for life (or something equally horrendous- this is 'one of
> the most important wizarding laws after all!). Of course, this is
> where it gets tricky, as, after all, Harry and Hermione *didn't*
> change time. In fact, they actually ensured that it happened
> correctly. 

Again, what is at stake? Going to Azkaban? Yes of course, but you 
could also say, "Your very lives are at stake if you see your other 
selves", because they wouldn't understand and try to kill you.

Again, if you cannot change time (or history), regardless of the 
circumstances, then why bother to make a law about it. There will be 
no alternate outcomes to the use of the TT. Why send someone to 
Azkaban?

Do all the characters see things from the cause-effect point of view 
(not the fate is written one)?, It seems to be likely from what we 
infer from C1, C2, C3, from Dumbledores "we are what we chose to 
be", and basically all canon.

Wizards have traveled in time and ended up killing themselves, so 
the use of the TT is extremely restricted. Imagine that Voldemort 
uses a TT to travel to the point James and Lily are kids. Why not 
kill James there? 

Suppose a wizard gets the permission of the MoM to use a TT for some 
purpose. But he uses it to erase all tracks of ever been given the 
TT (he kills the person who gave it to him and erases all paperwork 
associated with it, puts Memory Charms on everyone, etc.). So he has 
a TT and can do whatever he wants to do. He has erased all evidence 
of possessing a TT. He lied to the MoM about the reason he needed 
the TT. Or he didn't lie but Dark Magic made him change his mind. Or 
some bad wizard kills him and discovers he has a TT and steals it.

Are these situations impossible? Isn't this a really great risk?

In what cases would the TT be allowed to be used?

Isn't it safer and easier to destroy all TT's, instead of making 
laws about them?




Well anyway. Writing really helps clearing up thoughts! I've been 
all morning writing this message (about 4 hours), realizing some 
contradictions in my logic. 

I accept (finally, Yes!!) your point of view about Theory 3, but if 
characters see time travel from the cause-effect point of view, I 
believe TT's should be destroyed. And if the characters see time 
travel from the "Can't change fate" point of view (unlikely), then 
TT's could be used as a learning tool. 

I do not believe that Theory 2 is invalid but it involves parallel 
universes and that is a much harder concept to grasp. And I really 
don't want to go there.

Anyway, Theory 3 doesn't invalidate my original theory of Lupin is 
James.

I think that one of the things that make the Potter books so 
successful is the fact that there are so many clues in it, that each 
time you reread it you discover something different about them. It's 
a very well thought out Septology. It's even greater that we have 
Internet and the opportunity to discuss these clues with people all 
over the world with so many different backgrounds and points of 
view. 

Thanks to all for your patience. This specific "time travel" theory 
has been bugging me for ever. Of course there are other TV/Movie 
shows that deal with other types of time-travel theories, but that 
is another subject. Not going there either.

Hopefully I'm not the only one with a better understanding of this 
subject!  Cool!!

And yes I have a huge headache because I'm coming down with a 
cold. :-(

I'm sorry for causing you all the headache you must have right now.

I wish that after Book 7 comes out, JKR publishes at least 2 more 
books explaining all the clues and references in the books.

It seems that Peeves came to visit me in the middle of my writing 
this message. At one point I had to search my PoA book for about 10 
minutes, only to discover it right beside the computer. Just didn't 
see it the other 20 times I searched there. 

:-)

Sharana...