Time Travel

[sevenhundredandthirteen <sevenhundredandthirteen@yahoo.com>]

No: HPFGUIDX 49000

Sharana wrote:

>Anyway, Theory 3 doesn't invalidate my original theory of Lupin is 
>James.
Absolutely right. And before we all got caught up in the time-travel 
aspects no-one yet could conclusively prove you wrong either.

Sharana wrote:

>Wizards have traveled in time and ended up killing themselves, so 
>the use of the TT is extremely restricted. Imagine that Voldemort 
>uses a TT to travel to the point James and Lily are kids. Why not 
>kill James there? 

I also often wonder about McGonagall's comment about killing your 
past self. I consider it more of a scare tactic to keep Hermione in 
line. Because, theoretically, if you kill your past self, you 
wouldn't live to go back in time and do the killing- it is a paradox.

Sharana wrote:

>Isn't this a great tool for students? I mean, there would be no need 
>for students to fail any exams, in my studying experiences, I have 
>failed some exams because I didn't have enough time to understand a 
>concept, or I didn't understand the class, or maybe I was sick and 
>couldn't go to the class. Why not give this second chance to the 
>rest of the students. I believe that the main goal of a student is 
>to learn, not just to pass exams. 

The only problem is that the consequences of extended time-travel do 
horrible things to one's health- look at poor Hermione- exhausted and 
fatigued, and she was at most only doing a couple of hours back 
everyday. 

The greatest tool for learning would be a different type of time-
turner; one that worked on the Ground-Hog Day Theory (I neglected to 
bring it up as an option in my initial post because it was 
irrelevant, but this seems to bring it on-topic). In *that* time-
travel theory you get deposited back at whatever state you were in 
when the loop started- regardless of whether you drove off a cliff or 
ended up in jail and have complete memory of the experience. In this 
instance time is reversible and at the end of the designated time 
someone just presses the rewind button and you wake up exactly as you 
were. (I didn't bring it up before because it doesn't have the 
necessary factor of being able to interact with oneself in two forms 
which is essential for the HP time-travel to work) This would be 
excellent for learning. Hermione could just keep rewinding time, 
sitting through a class, learning about a theory, then rewind and 
enter the loop in the same non-exhausted, non-stressed state she went 
in, and head off to another class in perfect attentiveness. The only 
bad thing being that she wouldn't be able to take anything with her- 
no notes or written work (as when time was reversed, they were 
unwritten). She'd just need to get someone to give her copies. How 
perfect would *that* be. 

If this kind of time-travel existed imagine the massive difference 
the night's events would have taken. Harry and Hermione go back in 
time, they enter standing next to Ron listening to hear if there's 
anyone in the Entrance Hall But with full knowledge of Scabbers and 
Sirius et al. They sneak down to Hagrid's, grab the milk jug with 
Scabbers in it, wait for Dumbledore to arrive, go; "Ah ha! Do a 
little 'make this animagus show his true form' spell" Peter Pettigrew 
falls on the floor, Lupin runs down, Snape follows him, Dumbledore 
send Snape back to get the wolfsbane potion, Lupin tells his stuff, 
Pettigrew confesses, Lupin doesn't transform and then someone runs 
outside and hugs Sirius. Ah! Now that would be a happy ending, a 
major anticlimax no doubt, but a very happy ending ;)


Sharana wrote:

>The existence of H&H2 does not change the outcome.

Absolutely. In fact, the outcome is relying on H2/H2. They are 
actually creating the outcome They are necessary and indispensable 
components of it- only they don't realise it yet. The journey H2/H2 
take back is just as much about making things happen, as it is 
understanding them, and going on an emotional discovery. Think about 
what state Harry goes in- ignorant to time-travel, feelings of 
futility and that he couldn't change anything and with the question 
of the caster of the Patronus. Then look at how he comes out of the 
experience- he now understands fully the events of the night, has 
found his father's spirit inside himself, and now knows that Sirius 
and Buckbeak are safe, he has a father figure to rely on. All in all, 
Harry's emotional response to what happens is certainly a worthwhile 
cause for him to go back in time. 

Sharana wrote:

>If H&H2 serve the purpose to explain what happens to H&H1, and
>they can't change the outcome, then why is there so much fuss
>about not being seen? Why bother to make a law against the use
>of the TT? Why is it one of the most important wizarding laws?
>Why is breaking this law punished by something so extreme like
>sending the offender to Azkaban?

Sharana also wrote:

>Again, if you cannot change time (or history), regardless of the 
>circumstances, then why bother to make a law about it. There will be 
>no alternate outcomes to the use of the TT. Why send someone to 
>Azkaban?

Sharana also wrote:

> What happened with: "It is our choices, not our abilities who
>make us who we are" ?

This is going to sound very, very, very out there, and it's a good 
thing that you said you can understand and accept a singular time 
line. Try to think conceptually, it certainly helped me get me head 
around this. The idea being that when Harry and Hermione go back in 
time it's the first time, so essentially they have full control over 
what happens. It's never happened before. This is the first time it 
has ever been 10:00pm on June the 6th. (with me so far?). 

Even though Harry and Hermione have experienced the night before, 
that is all currently in the future. Like, when Lupin enters the 
tunnel Harry and Hermione *know* that Snape will follow. It hasn't 
happened yet, even Snape himself doesn't even realise that he's going 
to do it yet, but Harry and Hermione do. In that sense, it seems that 
Snape has no choice over his actions- But of course he does, we all 
say! He didn't have to go in! He chose to. But not from the 
perspective of H2/H2. When Harry and Hermione chase after Ron when 
Sirius is dragging him- they chose to do that. Of course they did- 
they saw their friend in peril and acted out of loyalty and concern 
and bravery. But from the perspective of H2/H2 they *had* to follow 
Ron. It wasn't a choice, it was a necessary action that was forced to 
happen, even though Harry and Hermione weren't aware of it at the 
time. When you start thinking about it like that, Harry noble and 
valiant action of sparing Wormtail in the Shrieking Shack wasn't a 
choice. This is when things get a bit iffy because that action was a 
defining moment for Harry- it was a major significant moment when 
Harry defined himself. The point I'm trying to make is that from 
H2/H2's perspective everything all the non-time-turned people do 
*isn't* a choice. And we, as readers (who have been following the 
story from Harry's experiences not and external point of view) know 
that everything the time-turned people did wasn't a choice either- 
Harry *had* to cast the Patronus- it wasn't a choice, he'd already 
done it. So, therefore, no-one has a choice. It's not just the time-
turned people's actions that are governed by predestination, it's 
*everyone's.* Right? I say, wrong. 

Getting back to what I said earlier, there was only ever one 10:00pm 
of the 6th of June. Which means that it's the first and only time it 
happened. Harry2 could have done *whatever* he wanted. He did not 
have to save Buckbeak, he did not have to cast the Patronus. It was 
the first time- there's no guarantee that everything that he thought 
he witnessed initially as Harry1 was going to happen exactly to plan- 
it was all in the future. The point being that whatever he did, 
that's what Harry1 was going to react to and become part of his 
memory. Harry wanted to change the events, but didn't, Harry tried to 
save Buckbeak and succeeded, Harry had no intention of casting that 
Patronus, but did. Harry2 had full control over his actions, just the 
same as Harry1 did even though from the other one's perspective they 
didn't. Because these choices were simultaneous, but made 
consecutively by the same person it's harder to understand, but 
essentially, Harry1 was choosing to continue on going down the tunnel 
to rescue his friend at the same time Harry2 was choosing not to 
steal the invisibility cloak from Snape. (the reason Harry2 made this 
choice was because he was relying on his memory of the event from 
another point of view- a point of view which included Snape taking 
the cloak) Sure, they happened one after the other from Harry's 
perspective, but from the external point of view of time, they were 
occurring simultaneously. It's better to think of each Harry as an 
independent and individual person. Harry2 chose to cast the Patronus 
before Harry1 had even seen him do it. Consequently, when Harry1 does 
see him (after its' already done) Harry1 chooses to interpret Harry2 
as James Potter as a direct reaction to Harry2's choice. Harry2 chose 
to save Beaky, Macnair chose to swing his axe into the fence in 
frustration, Hagrid chose to howl in jubilation and Harry and 
Hermione and Ron chose to interpret that as Beaky's execution.  Every 
action was a choice-whether it occurred simultaneous to another 
choice, or caused it, or was directly proportionate to another choice.

The biggest factor in determining what choices to make is memory. 
Harry decides to trust his memory. He didn't have to. He could have 
ignored his experiences of the events, but by choosing not to, Harry2 
was, in fact, ensuring that his memory of the events from inside the 
Shrieking Shack were synonymous with what happened. He interacted 
with the events at a simultaneous time to which Harry1 was making 
choices, and hence forging the memories which Harry2 is relying on.

I think I've just confused myself further. The point I was trying to 
make was: there is a way of looking at the events which gives every 
character a free choice. You just have to think that the things that 
*had* to happen (the Patronus across the lake) weren't secondary or 
predestined, but choices made simultaneously by independent people 
with the additional factor of memory influencing their actions.

What I've tried to demonstrate was that whilst there can never be a 
difference in the overall outcome of the events (it would create a 
paradox and negate all human existence), time only happened once, you 
can't change the past, but you had a choice in it at the time- 
whether you were on one side of the lake, or the other.

~<(Laurasia)>~