Snape vs. Sirius, round 2 cont'd

[judyserenity]

No: HPFGUIDX 34757

"uilnslcoap" <devin.smither at y...> wrote:
> I don't want to convince people who don't like Sirius to like him.  
> I just want them to not hate him or dislike him so savagely as they 
> do.  

Devin, for the record, I don't hate Sirius.  I don't even "savagely 
dislike him."  I just don't particularly *like* him.  He doesn't have 
the sort of personality that I like.  He rubs me the wrong way.  And I 
felt that people here were overlooking an awful amount of bad behavior 
on his part. 

Devin continued:
> [Sirius] was James Potter's best friend, laughed at his wedding 
> to Lily.  He must've been quite something as a human being, 
> actually, to have been a friend, THE friend, one might argue, to 
> the Potters. 

Well, sure, he had friends at school.  I'm not saying he's so awful 
that he had no friends.  In fact, he seems quite loyal to his friends. 
 The problem is, he's not nice to other people.  Basically, he reminds 
me of the popular type of kid at school who seemed to think that 
everyone else existed for his amusement.  He played practical jokes on 
*lots* of people, canon says, not just Snape.  He's sorry if something 
bad happens to one of his friends, but he couldn't care less if 
anything bad happens to anyone else, not even if it happened *because* 
of him.  (Hmm, maybe on second thought, I *do* savagely dislike him.  
But I don't hate him.) 

Yeah, I know you probably aren't interpreting Sirius that way.  But I 
am. And that's absolutely nothing in canon to suggest he was any other 
way.  


Ok, about Azkaban.  JKR says the dementors represent depression, and 
they certainly are written that way.  Depression tends to increase 
remorse, not decrease it.  I think the people who say that is why 
Sirius blames himself for James' and Lily's deaths are on to 
something.  However, Azkaban certainly can't explain Black's lack of 
remorse towards other people. 

As for whether Azkaban is still an excuse for Black's violent 
behavior, even 10 months later, I don't think so. First of all, PTSD 
rarely makes people violent, unless they were that way to begin with. 
 Even more importantly, we know that Hagrid recovers almost 
immediately after leaving Azkaban; he says so.  (He says something 
like "it was like being born again.")  And, it's repeatedly said that 
Azkaban has much less effect on Black than on other people. Would 
someone really recover emotionally immediately after 12 years in a 
horrible place like Azkaban?  In real life, probably not.  But, based 
on JKR's writing, they do in the Potterverse. 


Siriusgeologist said:
> I don't really see revenge as Sirius' primary motivator for his 
> actions in PoA. Sirius broke out of Azkaban for one primary reason. 
> To keep Harry from being killed by Pettigrew, whom he alone knew was 
> working for Voldie.

Well, if that was Sirius' motivations, that would put him in a better 
light.  But, I don't see how it can be.  If Sirius just had a selfless 
desire to protect Harry, why didn't he just bite Ron's pocket and eat 
Scabbers?  Or, why not grab Ron's wand with his teeth, transform, and 
attack Peter?  Instead, he seems to go through this whole "I'm going 
to drag Peter into the Shack so I can make him suffer" thing. 


Now, on to Snape....

Marina says the "Snape left the DEs because of Lily" theory makes more 
sense now that's it's been explained better.  However, she says she's 
> still not a fan of the Tru Luv angle. 
Cindy concurs, saying:
> Having Snape's conversion rest on one of those fuzzy, heart-warming 
> flashbacks to stolen moments with Lily in the cold dungeon will make 
> me want to hurl.

Good news! The Lollipops theory doesn't require any actual 
relationship between Snape and Lily!  No warm fuzzy moments required! 
I tend to see it as Snape loving Lily from afar, never even letting on 
how about he felt about her because he felt sure she'd reject him. So, 
it rests more on the tortured, twisted view of the universe that we've 
all come to expect (and maybe love) from Snape. 


Cindy had more to say about her "Snape betrayed his friends" theory:
> Once Snape saw the truth, he realized he had made a mistake. He 
> couldn't simply flee; he would be hunted down and killed. He had to 
> be on Dumbledore's team or he was doomed.

Marina has pointed out one problem with this theory, namely that Snape 
is *still* willing to risk his neck for Dumbledore 14 years later.  
I'll point out another problem.  I think if Snape was just acting out 
of self-preservation, Dumbledore might help him as long as he was in 
actual danger.  But I don't think Dumbledore would trust Snape, and I 
don't think Dumbledore would *care* about him.  And, at the end of 
GoF, it's clear that Dumbledore is genuinely worried about Snape.  I 
think this is the strongest argument that Snape isn't all bad -- 
Dumbledore actually cares about him, and puts up with quite a lot from 
him.  So, there must be something good in there somewhere. 



Alex ("Greg Pyron") said:
> As first mate of the good ship L.O.L.LI.P.O.P.S, I feel I should 
> elucidate my position. I HATE SNAPE....

Certainly, one can believe that Snape loved Lily without actually 
loving (or liking, or even just not hating) Snape.  So, that's fine. 
No problem at all.  My eyes will just "glitter with malice" every time 
I see you on board.  Oh, and in the mess hall, you might want to sniff 
your pumpkin juice carefully before you drink it.  (I hope no one 
thinks that was a sirius, er, um, I meant serious, threat.) 

Speaking of the good ship L.O.L.LI.P.O.P.S, I wrote a long post on 
that last night, and it still hasn't shown up. I guess I'll wait a few 
more hours before reposting it. 

-- Judy