Snape vs. Sirius, round 2 cont'd

[Penny & Bryce]

No: HPFGUIDX 34761

Hi --

I can't believe I'm chiming in on this as I usually avoid all Snape 
threads (more because I can't *keep up* with all the theories than 
because I hate his character or find him boring).  For the record, I 
fall into the camp of liking Snape's complexity (though not his 
treatment of students) AND liking Sirius (I like *everything* about 
Sirius though).

judyserenity wrote:


> Well, sure, he had friends at school.  I'm not saying he's so awful
> that he had no friends.  In fact, he seems quite loyal to his friends.
> The problem is, he's not nice to other people.  Basically, he reminds
> me of the popular type of kid at school who seemed to think that
> everyone else existed for his amusement.  He played practical jokes on
> *lots* of people, canon says, not just Snape.

Perhaps I've forgotten something (it's been awhile since I chimed in on 
a Sirius debate), but where in canon is the notion that Sirius played 
practical jokes on *lots* of people?  All I'm recalling is the 
conversation amongst the teachers at the pub -- in referring to *both* 
Sirius & James, they are described as a *pair* of troublemakers.  They 
made Rosmerta laugh; they are described as bright.  Er .. I don't recall 
anything in canon though that otherwise mentions Sirius alone being a 
practical joker.  In fact, there's no sense from this scene that either 
Sirius or James played pranks on others...just that they were a pair of 
troublemakers.

  He's sorry if something
> bad happens to one of his friends, but he couldn't care less if
> anything bad happens to anyone else, not even if it happened *because*
> of him.  (Hmm, maybe on second thought, I *do* savagely dislike him. 
> But I don't hate him.)

Care to elaborate on what you mean here?

As for Snape & the Prank, there's clearly no love lost between Snape & 
Sirius, even yrs later.  However, we do *NOT* know what Snape did to 
motivate the Prank.  We can conjecture from now till sundown, but until 
OOP or Books 6 or 7 clues us in, we're only guessing.  All we know is 
that Sirius tipped Snape off to go down the tunnel to the Shrieking 
Shack and knew that he'd run into Remus the Werewolf.  We know also that 
James knew about Sirius' prank at some point & saved Snape's life.  We 
don't know *when* James learned of the Prank.  We don't know the dynamic 
of the relationship(s) between Sirius, James, Remus, Peter and Snape. 
In short, we don't know much of anything.  Sirius certainly used poor 
judgment.  But, until we know what that greasy-haired Snape guy did to 
cause Sirius to play the Prank, I'm reserving judgment.  :--)

I can't think of where Sirius expresses glee or just disinterest in bad 
things happening to anyone other than Snape though.  Again, what canon 
examples are you relying on?

> 
> Yeah, I know you probably aren't interpreting Sirius that way.  But I
> am. And that's absolutely nothing in canon to suggest he was any other
> way.

Au contraire.  <g>  All canon suggests is that Sirius *and* James were 
bright students, ringleaders of their "little gang," and a *pair* of 
troublemakers (or at least this is all I'm recalling .. I may be due for 
a re-read).  While many of us may be projecting from these glimpses of 
Hogwarts-era Sirius that he was a ladies man, a flirt, a "popular" kid 
who looked down on anyone outside his circle & the typical jock/popular 
kid stereotype, the truth is that all we know is that he was bright, a 
leader of his "little gang" (which was probably just him, James, Remus & 
Peter really) and a bit of a "troublemaker."  What's a "troublemaker"? 
It *might* be someone who plays practical jokes on others, 
thoughtlessly.  Then again, it *might* be just someone prone to making 
wise-ass comments to the teachers.

  
> As for whether Azkaban is still an excuse for Black's violent
> behavior, even 10 months later, I don't think so. First of all, PTSD
> rarely makes people violent, unless they were that way to begin with.

Source please?  <g>  We've had *alot* of discussions about PTSD, and 
while Carole & Monika are way more knowledgeable than I am, that 
statement hits me wrong.  Someone close to me recently suffered from 
PTSD; he's not normally violent but did have violent outbursts in the 
course of this condition.

> Even more importantly, we know that Hagrid recovers almost
> immediately after leaving Azkaban; he says so.

Hagrid wasn't guilty of anything.  Hagrid is & was basically a happy 
person.  Once he recovered his happy memories, it's no surprise to me 
that he'd recover quickly enough.  Sirius, OTOH, has alot of depression, 
guilt, remorse working.  Hagrid was also imprisoned for what 2 mths? 
Sirius was there for 12 *years.*  Besides, Azkaban wasn't the triggering 
event for Sirius' PTSD, so escaping Azkaban isn't going to miraculously 
fix that for him.  His triggering event was when he learned of the 
Potters' deaths and/or his confrontation with Wormtail later the next 
day.  He would still be manifesting symptoms of PTSD, even after 
escaping from the malfeasance of the Dementors.  He still has the PTSD 
in GoF I'm sure ... we just didn't see him in the right situations to 
see the manifestations.  I'd bet money we'll see more of that in OOP.

> Siriusgeologist said:
>  > I don't really see revenge as Sirius' primary motivator for his
>  > actions in PoA. Sirius broke out of Azkaban for one primary reason.
>  > To keep Harry from being killed by Pettigrew, whom he alone knew was
>  > working for Voldie.

Judy responded:

 
> Well, if that was Sirius' motivations, that would put him in a better
> light.  But, I don't see how it can be.  If Sirius just had a selfless
> desire to protect Harry, why didn't he just bite Ron's pocket and eat
> Scabbers?  Or, why not grab Ron's wand with his teeth, transform, and
> attack Peter?  Instead, he seems to go through this whole "I'm going
> to drag Peter into the Shack so I can make him suffer" thing.

Well, he might be motivated both by concern for Harry & a desire to 
clear his name.  He can be primarily motivated by concern for Harry's 
protection and secondarily cognizant that killing the rat doesn't really 
end his own personal troubles.  Staying a wanted criminal in the 
wizarding world doesn't help his godson much after all, aside from his 
own personal desires to stop living in hiding.  If he'd *eaten* 
Scabbers, he'd have destroyed the one shred of evidence that would clear 
his name & allow him to live a normal life in the wizarding world again. 
  Question: if he'd *killed* Scabbers in his rat form but not eaten him 
as a dog, could some spell have transformed the dead Scabbers into a 
dead Pettigrew???  I don't know ...just wondering.  But, Sirius has 
never struck me as vengeful so much as interested in protecting Harry & 
clearing his own name.

> 
> Cindy concurs, saying:
>  > Having Snape's conversion rest on one of those fuzzy, heart-warming
>  > flashbacks to stolen moments with Lily in the cold dungeon will make
>  > me want to hurl.

Judy says:

> 
> Good news! The Lollipops theory doesn't require any actual
> relationship between Snape and Lily!  No warm fuzzy moments required!
> I tend to see it as Snape loving Lily from afar, never even letting on
> how about he felt about her because he felt sure she'd reject him. So,
> it rests more on the tortured, twisted view of the universe that we've
> all come to expect (and maybe love) from Snape.

I definitely agree with Judy here.  I don't see it as ever having been a 
relationship between Snape & Lily.  I see it as an unrequited love from 
afar sort of thing.  Then again, my pet theory of FITD also hangs on 
some unrequited teenage crushes ... so I'm predisposed to like similar 
theories.  <g>

Penny
(a Sirius defender (is there an acronym?) and a lowly sailor on the Good 
Ship Lollipops)