SHIP: Problems with the concept of...

[heidit at netbox.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 35106

In a message dated 2/12/2002 5:41:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
devin.smither at yale.edu writes:


> Whoa.  Whoa.  Okay, I'm really sorry.  I've actually made people 
> upset.  

If you're implying that you upset me, you didn't. I'm not taking this SHIP 
debate that seriously, I promise you. I didn't mean to demonstate ire myself, 
and hope that you didn't percieve me as presenting any. Saracsm is all well 
and good (although you can peek at my post from yesterday as to an as yet 
unanswered query about that) even in SHIP debates. They're nothing but 
speculation - and whatever we convince ourselves, or others, of, is 
completely immaterial as far as canon is concerned anyway, as we all know. 
But personally, I think that looking at canon from alternate perspecitves and 
having weird insights is part of the fun. Of course, YMMV (your mileage may 
vary). Then again, I chirp up every so often with the "Draco may not be 
redeemed in canon when Book 7 concludes but JKR's certainly set the stage to 
be able to do it if she wants to" thread and a lot of people think I am nuts 
for doing so (of course, others think I'm nuts, but then I whisper, "Darcy, 
Draco, Darcy, Draco," and they say, "she's nuts but she may have a point."
> 
> I'm gonna go ahead and raise a white flag on just about every issue.  
> I jumped in half-cocked on quite a few things, unprepared, and I 
> admit that.  While I really DO want to defend my point of view on a 
> couple of things (I still don't think Ginny threw the diary away on 
> Riddle's orders...I did NOT mean that Rowling would portray her 
> characters in an unrealistic way...and I DON'T think Ginny and Harry--
> IF they are ever a couple--would announce an engagement in Book VII's 
> August-June of seventh year time frame), I really think I should just 
> let tempers cool before I even start to do that.  


IMHO, you should do so any time you want. Wait, no, not tonight. Go study. 
But after, yes, please, do so. 
> oPlease forgive me, once more, if 
> you thought I was just butting my head against the wall like a 
> pouting child going, "No, no, NO, I'M RIGHT!!!"  That wasn't my frame 
> of mind, and I'm really sorry.
> 

I didn't think you were doing that, so no requests otherwise are necessary.

> This board is mostly about speculation, yes?  Canonized, backed-up 
> speculation?  I don't think I've done too much of anything that was 
> utterly unsupported by canon.  

Honestly, you haven't. It's just that people read canon differently. It's 
amazing how different 2 people can read the same itsy bitsy sentence, like 
the one about lily and James being Head Boy and Girl "in their day." I never 
saw an implication in that, that they were together in school. You did. To 
each their own. 

> I'm sorry if you disagree, or think 
> I'm extrapolating too much, but I don't think any of my arguments 
> were utterly without foundation 

Why do people apologize for the fact that others disagree with them? Please 
answer on OT_Chatter - this question is not rhetorical - I would love an 
explanation of this! Really!
> tIf people are going to get cranky when I get 
> too enthusiastic about a certain issue, and then bite my head off, 
> I'm not so sure I want to voice my opinions.  

Erm. Was I cranky? If so, then *I* apologize. I really and honestly thought 
that I was just voicing my read on canon and adding in another point that 
I've heard argued about the posession being ongoing. 
> Maybe you think that's 
> a good thing, that we'd be better off without my opinions, but I 
> would never jump on someone who was brimming with enthusiasm over any 
> part of Harry Potter.  
> 
No, I think opinions are great. WOnderful, everyone should have them, they 
should be discussed and debated and deliberated over, especially when one, as 
we here, has no idea whether one's opinions are based in "fact." We're 
dealing with an open canon, as the series is unfinished, and there's tonnes 
of room for opinions. Even ones which are diametrically opposed to each 
other. BTW - I'm not sure what you mean by jumping on someone who is brimming 
with enthusiasm... People jump on other people's opinions all the time here. 
Look at the debate which has been going for *a week* about Snape and Sirius 
and their issues, rivalry, impact, morals, etc. People are reading those two 
characters in completely different ways from each other, and they are going 
back and forth about which bits of canon support which arguments, which 
glimpses of real world psychology may be brought to bear on which character, 
whether the characters could exist in the real world in this manner, etc. And 
I honestly don't consider SHIP debates to be anything else. You and I are 
reading the character of Ginny in different ways, and I don't think I'm wrong 
in saying that we do not see eye to eye on how she's been characterized so 
far. Again, so what? It's just our opinions, and we both want to explain 
canon in a way that supports our feelings. Should I have just sat here and 
read what I considered to be an inaccurate rendition of canon? No, no more 
than you should have. Speak your mind, and the rest will follow, or something 
like that.
> I consider true enthusiasm for these books to 
> be in pretty limited demand, and I wouldn't get actually upset with 
> anyone who liked them the way I do.  Debate is valuable; utter 
> censure is not.
> 

: puts on Elf hat for the next paragraph:
Nobody should feel censured because another listie wants to debate something 
with them! I can't say that there are no right or wrong answers from canon - 
because there are, to date, things which pretty much all of us would agree on 
- but there are at least 2 different imterpritations for *most* scenes in the 
book, if not most lines of dialogue. 
: removes hat, as it is silly-looking anyway, and I much prefer my pointy hat 
anyway.


> So, ANYWAY, I'll just say that, based on my readings of novels (and 
> certain, more serialized forms of literature), I see Ginny as highly 
> foreshadowed to develop into something much more important than she 
> is in the books right now.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think I can 
> be declared in the wrong irrevocably as of today.  

You can't. Nor can arguments to the contrary be declared wrong. That's why 
we're all laying them on the table, I think. 
> I'm gonna go study for two midterms I have tomorrow.  Shakespeare: 
> Script to Screen, and Econ: Industrial Organization.  I hope your 
> tomorrow is better than mine is going to be.
> 
Good luck, and have fun!

heidi
http://www.fictionalley.org


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