Draco and Lucius

[gwendolyngrace]

No: HPFGUIDX 35461

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tabouli" <tabouli at u...> quoted me:
> > He doesn't connect to his son. He threatens him, he bullies him
> (verbally, *never* physically, IMO--that's part of Draco's problem),
> he rewards him with material goods (inconsistently, btw) and
> apparently indulges Narcissa's tendency to spoil him (sweets, choosing
> Hogwarts over Durmstrang despite his reservations about Dumbledore).
> But...he doesn't show his love in any meaningful way.<

And then said:
"You know, whenever I read people talking about Draco being neglected
and abused, I keep getting a whiff of cultural and era differences at
work.  The modern ideal of parents who hug their children regularly,
tell them they're great all the time, strive to be encouraging and
supportive and complimentary about everything they do, democratic,
explanatory, negotiation based parenting, etc.etc. is a very recent
and, I think, particularly American development."


Tabouli. No. You have completely misconstrued what I was referring to;
I used some shorthand there because I've talked about this at length
before. This is not about culture and not about touchy-feely ickle
woobiekins crap. In fact, if you'll notice, I mentioned that I think
part of Draco's problem is that he is *not* disciplined consistently.
I *hate* that modern psychological, "negotiation-based" as you put it,
parenting bullhockey. I'm not sure how you got to that extreme from my
saying merely that Lucius is not connected in any meaningful way to
Draco. I think Lucius cares about his son, but I don't get the
impression that he *likes* his son--he disdains him. He doesn't know
what to do with Draco.

You continued:
  What gets construed as "abusive" and "authoritarian" these days was
downright normal not long ago, and, I suspect, still *is* to some
degree among the Britich aristocracy.  These are people who sent their
seven year olds to icy boarding schools where they got the cane, ate
ghastly food and had cold showers to "toughen them up"!


Yes. I am wholeheartedly in favour of parenting as a (generally
benevolent) dictatorship. And I'm well aware that the normal thing in
a household like Draco's is for his parents to essentially ignore him
until he's old enough to carry on dinner conversation. That's NOT what
I'm talking about. All I said was Lucius doesn't connect. I'm not
talking about quality time and certainly not positive
reinforcement--or as you put it, telling him he's great--my problem is
that I *don't* think Draco has gotten any attention consistently AT ALL.

The model you put forth is more-or-less how I picture Lucius to have
been raised. Yes, I *do* think Draco had tutors and nannies, yes, I
*do* think he had supervision, but no, I *don't* think that
supervision ever really had his "best interest" at heart. I absolutely
don't think he's ever been spanked, let along caned, in his life. Like
I said, that's his problem--he's allowed too free a rein. I have a
feeling he gets away with murder at home--primarily because Lucius
doesn't want to focus on the "trivial" details of his son's education
and Narcissa defers to the boy too often (IMO). Whether that is out of
affection or convenience is unclear, though I think some of both is
likely. If you want him to stop whinging, buy him off (a bit like a
watered-down Petunia Dursley, in fact), bribe him to stop.

I don't think Lucius gives his son a second thought, most of the time,
except when presented with this creature, who is whingy and demanding
and altogether unimpressive, and nothing like Lucius pictures himself
at that age to have been. He's certainly not living up to Lucius's
expectations of what "His Son" would be like. I think Lucius doesn't
expect Draco to need reinforcement or any type of positive
contact--after all, *he* would never have climbed into his father's
lap at any age, so why should Draco? It's like the plight of the
parent who was a goody-two-shoes in school, presented with a child who
is out of control. The parent has no idea how to proceed, because his
parents never *had* to discipline him. So the kid takes the power in
the relationship. I don't think it's quite that extreme, here, because
Lucius obviously does provide a poor example of a few traits that
Draco has in common, but that's the gist of what I'm saying. I think
Lucius honestly expected that any child of his would automatically
know what it is to be a Malfoy, and behave as one. No guidance required.

I also think Draco has been raised with a weird push-pull going on
between his parents: Lucius wants him "toughened up," as you say, but
with the exception of beatings (and how Draco needs a good
beating)--not because of any sheeshy, mamby-pamby "We don't hit in
this family" bull, but simply because Lucius balks at the idea of
anyone *else* touching Draco, and he can't be bothered to do it
himself. He cuts Draco up verbally, and that can be incredibly
difficult to take, but I get the impression Draco tends to "blow off"
Dad's criticism, especially when in the next breath, Dad's buying
brooms for the whole team. Narcissa, I think, spoils the kid rotten.
Yes, he occasionally gets what he asks for (the broom), but not until
Lucius is good and ready to give it to him--and that giving may well
be Mom's influence, as well. I mean, Narcissa owls the little brat
sweets from home every day.

I think Lucius has failed to be *any* kind of parent, is what I'm
saying. I don't have a problem with farming the kid out to staff whose
job it is to train him up, but I don't think they followed any
consistent plan for that purpose. For one thing, there is a
distinction between life in the nursery and life at the boarding
school. Ordinarily there's a huge gulf--where up until the kids are
old enough to attend school, they are smothered with love--either by
their parents (at certain times of day) or the servants who care for
them. In fact, in the 19th and early 20th centuries, Russian and
English children were considered the most "spoiled" in Europe because
their caretakers indulged them. School presents a culture-shock,
sink-or-swim expectation. However, I very much doubt that at any point
in his childhood, Draco could count on unconditional affection from
anyone--including all those nannies and tutors. He's never experienced
it, so going to school is not really all that different--except that
the pater and mater aren't as easily on hand to smooth things over for
him.

Tabouli:
> By British aristocracy standards, Lucius' parenting would be
considered quite acceptable, I'd wager.  Sure, Draco doesn't like his
father's criticism (intended to motivate him, I'm sure), but the
feeling of class superiority is meant to compensate.  Don't be so
common, Draco.

I completely agree, with the exception that I don't think the staff
were given enough leeway. But just because it's acceptable doesn't
mean it's what he needs (one) and two, I still don't think Lucius is
consistent about it or tempers it with the kind of "tough love" Draco
should be getting. Think about the incident in PS/SS where Draco
complains about being given a "practical" detention. Hagrid gets right
back in his face. One gets the impression that this is the first
time--ever--in this kid's life that a "servant" has dared discipline
him. Even in British aristocratic households, the servants had more
power than the children when it came to setting policy. If nothing
else, the invocation of the parents/master & mistress *should* make up
for any overstepping of bounds. When push comes to shove, this kid is
never told "no." He *isn't* told to "suck it up." He *isn't* taught to
control his emotions--I'll buy that Lucius *expects* him to be tough,
but Lucius never sees to it that the boy learns the lesson.

*That's* what I mean when I say he doesn't connect. He's a
soft-pedaled version of Vernon Dursley, attributing Draco's
indiscretions to youth or exuberance or associating with the "wrong"
sort at Hogwarts, but he never takes any steps to correct the
behaviour. He's miles better than Vernon in that he will privately (or
semi-publicly) take Draco down a peg or two, but still. Still. Look at
the circumstances.

I think Lucius was making light of an embarrassing situation in Borgin
and Burkes. The way I read the scene, Draco had just been "common," as
you say, and he had behaved childishly in front of an inferior. Lucius
was being charming to smooth over the indiscretion. The grades comment
was calculated to present a loving, caring picture to the "help," and
meant to be a bit of a joke. But Draco screws up again. He was
supposed to take it on the chin and be penitent and respectful. And
what does he do? He whines. He makes excuses. It leaves Lucius no
choice but to swat Draco back down into place and shut him up quickly.
It doesn't quite make up for losing face in front of Borgin, but it at
least establishes Lucius's control over his own family. In short,
Lucius is motivated by *selfish* reasons to display first a "normal"
father-son relationship, and then his firm parenting style, to someone
who might otherwise get the impression that Lucius is a pushover. It's
not about Draco at all.

No, on the whole, I have a feeling Lucius does not present a
discernible pattern to Draco. The occasional scold, followed by a
sizable material reward, is at best a mixed signal, and at worst could
be taken by Draco as an apology or an admission of some weird form of
guilt. The example of giving a child expensive presents to make up for
prior assaults is a good one here--not, I think, what Lucius intended,
but certainly in that Draco could take it that way. Lucius, IMO, is
not a man who apologizes--to anyone--but it would be consistently
self-centred of Draco to take any gift as a peace offering.

Now, if one were to ask Lucius "Do you love your son?" I think the
answer would be "Of course." If one asked Draco, "Does your father
love you?" I believe he would also say "Of course." Ditto if one asked
either of them whether Draco loves Lucius. Neither sees it as a
problem--but the complexities of such a relationship run deep, and I'd
be hard pressed to tell whether either is quite as sure as he claims
to be of the other's affection. That, too, lays pipe for the
possibility that Draco will come to see Dad is not the best role-model
in the world.

Gwen (who would probably make the toughest, meanest well-meaning
mother in the world, which is another excellent reason not to breed)