SHIP R/H, H/H

[Hillman, Lee]

No: HPFGUIDX 34049

Gwen once again takes on the role of a local fisherman out for a pleasure
cruise, at night, through eel-infested waters....

In a conversation between JChutney and Penny, they wrote:
> >> Cho is grouped in with her tirade against pretty people.>>
> >Where?>
> In GoF page 253 H says to Harry & Ron re: Cho & Fleur : "When 
> you've both put your eyes back in," said Hermione 
> briskly, "you'll be able to see who's just arrived."
> 
> I assumed that Hermione saw Cho as a pretty person. It's not direct, 
> but it seems to be the case. Hermione is not specific about Cho, 
> which makes me think she's not jealous of her.
>

I just reread this scene yesterday while looking for something else. I think
Hermione is reacting here to both of them, being teenage boys. Given what we
know about Hermione, her objection may as well be to the propensity of her
hormone-laden friends to begin ogling women and treating them as objects. At
this point, she might have had the same reaction had she come upon them
reading Penthouse. (Grow up, you're not looking beyond the surface, etc.,
etc.)

However, later on when Ron is speaking about the pretty girls vs. the
trolls, I think it is natural for Hermione to compound their fixation on
looks with a bit of insecurity about her own. I.E., why don't they notice
her?

I agree that Hermione already has accepted Krum's invitation at this point,
so either Ron or Harry suddenly asking her to go would still be a moot
point, as she already has made a commitment (and evidently she was not
waiting for either one of them if she accepted Krum). But the *logical*
argument that she can't accept from either of them is not mutually exclusive
from the *emotional* desire for validation from them for noticing her. 

Hermione--all the kids in their year--is at an age when feeling awkward and
unattractive are practically par for the course, especially when one is
bookish, regarded as plain by classmates ("Stunningly pretty? Her!"), and
easily stung by personal comments (think how often she cries over a personal
insult. Yes, she's developing a thicker skin, but that takes years and some
inner confidence, believe me--and something can still prick below the
surface even much later as an adult). Hermione needs some building up now
and then, just like anyone else. For example, she has no reason to doubt her
academic abilities, yet she is terrified she will fail (her boggart).
Knowing she is strong in academics does not equate necessarily to being a
person with high self-esteem. Especially when it comes to being attractive.
So it's no surprise to me that she is a little hurt and offended by the boys
not immediately assuring her that she is not, in fact, a troll. When Ron
does say something, it is so backhanded and unflattering that it's no wonder
she's upset. If I were Hermione, I would be only too pleased to be able to
honestly say, "I'm going with someone else (so there!)."

Back to jchutney:
> I am not saying R likes H so H should like R. Not at all. I am saying 
> H likes R, in spite of herself! Of course, he's not worthy of her! 

> #1 Ron does not deserve Hermione. I can't argue with that. He doesn't.
> LOL! But just because he doesn't deserve her, doesn't mean he
> won't get her;). #2 Harry needs a witch worthy of him.  I agree that
> Hermione is far better than Ginny or Cho. However, just because
> she's the best, doesn't mean he'll fall for her.

I think you've hit on something important here. Yes, I agree with Penny that
you made some broad generalizations about shippers' motivations, and that
that's a no-no, but I do think there is some validity in your canon-based
points.

Human beings, rightly or wrongly, frequently are attracted to the kind of
person who is exactly the worst match. 

In message 29544, I said:

"I think her interaction with Ron, particularly her frustration when he
doesn't perform
up to her par on either academic issues or questions of their
mystery-solving, is indicative of a desire to see Ron be something he isn't.
Or at least, isn't yet. I think her anger at him and her hurt reactions to
his teasing (especially about Viktor) are clues that she does Like him, but
is perhaps waiting for him to grow up and realize it. And personally, I
believe it would be a disaster if they did get together. Hermione is doing
something that, unfortunately, many intelligent, otherwise sensible young
(and not so young) women do: banking on potential, not reality."

I have seen intelligent, attractive, powerful women sublimate themselves for
a petty, immature, jealous guy more times than I can count. I've been guilty
of it myself--twice, in fact, and got badly burned both times. I still
haven't figured out exactly why otherwise really savvy women do this--I
think perhaps it has something to do with the need to be all things--smart
and sensitive, successful and nurturing, confident and
self-effacing/humble.... But I think it's a common mistake, and especially
with young girls, to feel connection to someone who is really "beneath"
them. (Before the CRABs start throwing rotten veggies, wait! I like Ron,
really. Bear with me here.) They compromise. They try to change or reform or
groom their chosen partners (which only results in resentment and a host of
other problems) into the ideal. They take the raw material they like and try
to mold it into perfection. I see this tendency in Hermione, and it happens
more with Ron than with Harry, so I fear that turning him into her ideal may
well be her intent. It adequately explains to me why she is disappointed
when he falls short of the mark. In that sense, I think she likes "the wrong
[person]," to paraphrase JKR. 

Now, to be fair, in that same post I also listed the reasons I thought she
might like Harry as well, including that she does occasionally hold him to
very high standards *just like Ron,* and furthermore I gave my reasons why I
think ultimately, none of them will wind up with any of them. Also, for all
those CRABs out there, I want to remind you I really like Ron. I think he's
a cool kid. But I think he has a lot of growing up to do, still, and I don't
think he'll ever really measure up to the tall order Hermione has
constructed. I do think he's on his way to becoming a fine man--I just think
Hermione is expecting way too much right now. And that's perfectly natural,
too. The White Knight just takes a really long time to find.

In terms of the second point, about Harry: again, I think he thinks of
Hermione as a friend, and that that connection is much more important to him
than as a girlfriend, or even a friend-who-is-a-girl. It's natural for boys
his age to ogle pretty girls like Cho. Actually, if he's going to have a
crush, Cho was a good candidate, since she's never once depicted as being
condescending or mean to him in the books. My jury is still out about
whether he and Hermione would make a good match, because I think the
friendship far overshadows any romantic feelings he might eventually have.
So in that sense, I'm not sure that Hermione is "the best," as you put it,
but I do agree that, like I outlined for Hermione, men are not immune to
choosing partners who aren't good for them. 

JChutney went on:
> LOL! However, if she really were clear about Ron's feelings, 
> wouldn't she find a way to defuse them, etc?  A situation where one 
> best friend has unrequited romantic feelings for another is very 
> tricky and could easily end the friendship. If H were clear about 
> R's feeling and if they were unwelcome to her, surely she would try 
> and dispassionate and kind way to let him down. 

I think this is a good argument that perhaps Hermione isn't sure how she
feels about Ron. I think she likes him, as I said (even Likes him), but that
she herself acknowledges that there are aspects of Ron that she finds
lacking. Should she decide they should just be friends? Should she take the
risk and try something more? Should she tell him to back off, while she
figures things out?

These are all tough calls--I'm not surprised that at 14/15, even with her
intelligence and relative maturity, she's reluctant to have this
conversation. Heck, I know women who are reluctant to have that conversation
at twice her age! Again, in some sense, I think that to all three of them,
the friendship is more important than romantic feelings, and that eventually
they will acknowledge that while they love each other, they are not "in
love" with each other. (I base this on experiences in small classes of
tightly knit circles of friends who had been together in small classes of
tightly knit circles of friends for at least as long as the kids have been.)
Yes, they both (or all) may have lingering attractions for one another, but
again, human emotions are messy. It's very possible to be attracted to
someone long after you either know that it's not going to work or realize
that it's a bad idea or even hate the person's guts. It becomes easier to
live with in time. And right now, they're all confused kids. 

In other words, this is a long-winded way of saying I agree in part with
both jchutney and Penny.

Gwen