Men of Straw; semantics (was religion)

[Hillman, Lee]

No: HPFGUIDX 34308

Greetings!

John wrote (responding to Amy Z, responding to me): 
> I think that the
> objections raised were also slightly strawy. Though I've been slightly
> preoccupied recently, I can't remember anyone saying that it was possible
to
> call Hogwarts purely secular. Rather, IIRC the argument from 
> this side was
> that Hogwarts was *no more* and perhaps *less* religious than British
> society as a whole.
> 

Close, John. I do think that's part of the original question, but it quickly
became one of whether there can be such a thing as a secular celebration of
a holy day. Which brings me right to:

Judy Serenity: 
> I think we are using different meanings of the word 
> "celebrate."  I am 
> using it in the sense of *observing* a holiday, to recognize it as a 
> day that is in fact holy.  You are referring to just attending  
> someone's else's party in honor of the holiday.  

Okay, first of all, I once again apologize to Judy (in public, as opposed to
privately) for misinterpreting her comments and running with it. When
discussing this delicate and sensitive topic, one runs the risk of
offending. If I have offended, I am truly sorry to have done so.

Next, I think we've reached the real issue here, and as I should have said
in my last post, it's one of semantics. Ah, the power of words. I think
Judy's hit the nail on the head when she says we're using different meanings
of celebrate. But I think that in HP, references to "celebrations" at
Yuletide are meant much more closely in the sense of partying than in the
sense of a solemn religious rite. I don't think anyone at Hogwarts actually
expects students to pay lipservice to or pretend to believe things they
don't. I think that the decorations, the feast, the giving of
presents--these are connotations of the festive time of year that have only
a tenuous connection to the original purpose of the holiday anymore. This
goes back to the debate over what 'secular' means. It's worth noting again
that the Yule log and the fir tree and the season turning from fall to
winter, the return of the sun--these are all elements of "Christmas" that
predate association with Christianity by a lot. They've been infused with a
culturally Christian connotation, but at heart, they belong to many
cultures.

>From the other examples Judy gave, it seems clear that we both feel that
unless one deliberately says or does something that indicates a belief in
something other than his own (i.e., saying "In Jesus's name we pray"), he
has no reason to feel compromised or as if he has broken faith with his
creator. And I believe we can safely guess that the staff at Hogwarts feel
the same.

Like John's, my old school has a multi-cultural celebration every year
before going on the end-of-year holidays. It's called Candlelight, and it
commemorates Hannukah, Christmas, and more recently Kwanzaa and Ramadan. The
common thread is, of course, the lighting of lights, but as part of the
annual program, everyone is asked to sing songs from Jewish and Christian
traditions. I believe that even this much participation would not be found
at Hogwarts. In that sense, I do still agree that there is a "secular"
component to Christmas that has absolutely nothing to do with its religious
overtones. Again, unless you feel you are expected to *believe* in the
Christmas story, I suppose I don't see why the celebrations take on so
religious a connotation.

I guess this is a weird and roundabout way of saying that we may not agree
on what to believe, but we do agree that no one can force another person to
believe something else. I happen to think that the references to Christmas
and Easter at Hogwarts are incredibly unreligious, especially compared to
other schools where there is a consistently devout approach to education. As
such, I see the question of whether other religions are represented there as
a question of degrees. No, there's no specific mention of kids lighting
incense burners and kneeling on prayer mats. But I don't think it's because
it doesn't happen; I think it's because it's immaterial to the plot. If it's
a straw man, then why are we so often confronted with the question, "I
noticed that Christmas and Easter are prominently mentioned, and so is
Halloween. Why aren't other religions represented at Hogwarts?" Or words to
that effect.

I return once more to my assertion that it's natural for Hogwarts to have a
Christian tradition in the name and placement of its holidays, owing to
English history, and that it's likely that at one time, or perhaps many
pockets of times, religious instruction or at least attendance at weekly
services was expected of students. As the community has become less
concerned with the presence of religion at school and more concerned with
other matters, just as Muggle society has done (in pendulum swings,
admittedly), religion became less important than other aspects of the
curriculum. It's also possible that because Hogwarts may have always had a
multi-cultural, multi-religious approach to education, that religious
instruction there has never been standard. But...while I'd like to think
even the Founders were so open-minded, I highly doubt that every Headmaster
from then til now has felt the same way. So in the 1,000 years of its
existence, I believe Hogwarts has had a changing relationship with religion:
sometimes more, sometimes less.

Gwen (hoping she's clearer and less inflammatory than last time)