YES! The Great Alchemist Debate Solved (sort of)

[dorbandb]

No: HPFGUIDX 41034

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "smokyant41" <yrawen at o...> wrote:
> Hello, everyone (I'm terribly new, by the way.)
> 
> Just thought I'd introduce myself by way of replying to this quite 
> interesting thread. 

Greetings!

> 
> > Amanda Geist wrote:
> > 
> > > A couple points on this thread:
> > > 
> > > 1. Not every prominent/historical witch or wizard necessarily 
> made it onto a card. It's probably up to the makers of Chocolate 
> Frogs, and the ones *they* think are prominent. Maybe they 
personally 
> never really heard of Flamel.

Or maybe Flamel's a muggle and muggles don't get wizarding cards.


><yrawen at o...> wrote:
> 
> Given the extent of Flamel's fame in Muggle alchemical and 
scientific history...Furthermore, his works survive in manuscript to 
this day, and much is known about him, even amongst us Muggles.

> Katze <jdumas at k...> wrote:
> 
> > I find it hard to believe that a wizard who has worked with 
> Dumbledore in Alchemy would not be known in the wizarding world. 
> Unless of course he wasn't accomplished at all, which wouldn't 
> explain why he went down in the muggle History books.

There needs to be a distinction between the historical Flamel and 
Potterverse Flamel.  No one disputes that historical Flamel existed.  
The question, for me at this time, is whether Potterverse Flamel is a 
muggle or a wizard. 

 
>
><yrawen at o...> wrote:
> 
> Additionally, he *does* get a mention on Dumbledore's card, 
> indicating that the makers of Chocolate Frogs know of him, and 
> believe him significant enough to mention him by name instead of 
> just saying that Dumbledore is famed for his work in alchemy, for 
> example.) Furthermore, maybe Flamel is on a card, but it's just a 
> very rare one, sort of like a limited-edition kind of thing.
> 

Yes, he does get a mention on D's card; he is significant enough to be 
mentioned by name; we cannot confirm that he has his own card - rare 
or otherwise.  He worked in Alchemy - not a discipline exclusive to 
wizards or muggles.

><yrawen at o...> wrote: 
> You're right, he *does* appear in several wizarding books, as well 
as Muggle ones, although it takes Hermione and co. some time to find 
> him; Hermione finds his name in the book she checked out for 'light 
> reading' over the Christmas holidays, and Ron says that it's no 
> wonder they couldn't find Flamel in 'Recent Developments in 
> Wizardry', because at 665 years old, he's not really recent. In 
> SS/PS, it is said:

It is my contention that this whole passage is a misdirection by JKR. 
 (see post #37934) The title of the book in which Hermione locates 
Flamel is never stated.  Flamel's name does not appear in any of the 
books with wizard titles mentioned in conjunction with the trio's 
search for him.  That's not to say that he's not in any wizard book, 
but he was not in any of the titles specifically mentioned.   

> <yrawen at o...> wrote:
> 'There have been many reports of the Sorceror's Stone over the 
> centuries, but the only known Stone currently in existence belongs 
to Mr. Nicolas Flamel, the *noted* alchemist and opera lover.' (my 
> emphasis)

Being a "noted  alchemist and opera lover" does not clarify Flamel's 
status as a muggle or wizard, as both activities can be practiced by 
either.

> <yrawen at o...> wrote:
> So, he is quite well-known in the world of wizard academia, anyway.
> 

As the aknowledged owner of the only PS, he would be well known, yes. 
 All the more curious that the trio couldn't locate him in the first 5 
or 6 wizard books and had to resort to some conveniently unnamed one. 
That's part of the difficulty of this whole scenario, as I'm sure you 
recognize.  Flamel is well-known to the WW- but he seems not to be 
engaged in it; he seems not to have much of an interest in it - 
certainly not on par with D, who is clearly a practioner, like Moody, 
of "constant vigilance."  Flamel could care less, apparently, about 
the WW, and they about him.  


<yrawen at o...> wrote:
> My guess would be that Flamel's bizarre invisibility in SS/PS 
results from the fact that the story is narrated from the point of 
view of a boy who has spent 10 of his 11 years knowing absolutely 
nothing about magic, and who hangs out with a girl who (for all her 
intelligence) has spent much of her life the same way and a boy who, 
let's face it, isn't exactly the most studious of individuals. 
> HF.


These are all good reasons for a straight-forward reading of Flamel's 
character as presented.  I just don't think it's that clear.  There 
have been a couple posts that said Flamel's wizard card is shown on 
the DVD extras - I have requested confirmation of this, but none has 
been forthcoming.  It would be impossible to argue about Flamel's 
status if he has a wizard card that says he's a wizard - even if it 
only shows up in dvd, it would have to be considered canon (wouldn't 
it?).  At any rate, I am not yet convinced of Flame's status - muggle 
of wizard, or even dead or alive.  Neither of those two things are 
currently proven to me.  Just my thoughts,

Brian