[HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and Women (WAS Logic and Math of Sexism )

[Laura Ingalls Huntley]

No: HPFGUIDX 41396

Kel:
>Ah, I'm not so sure here. Harry seems to fall into the typical male
>(mis)understanding of the female role (Virgin/Whore); most males tend to
>view women as one or the other. And his friendship with Hermione is just
>that- a friendship (she's not even a sister).<snip> 
>There has been discussion not too long ago about the issue of sexuality in
>the stories, and I am hoping that Harry will come to understand that
>females are not just one or the other.

Ah, well..I'm assuming this Virgin/Whore distinction you speak of is some psychological theory that I haven't come across and therefore don't understand the workings of -- but I'm going to try to respond to this at face value anyway.

IMO, Harry has quite a few women in his life that he does not see as sexual (pure or not) objects. 

Exhibit A:  McGonagall.  This is the person who is most likely to punish Harry when he gets caught -- and yet, unlike Snape, she is nothing if not fair.  Her main function at this time is to be the Responsible Authority/Disciplinarian.  And yet Harry is also exposed to her "softer" side (when Hermione is petrified), her competitive side (Quidditch), *and* to the fact that she is, indeed, a woman (witness her flirting with Hagrid during the Christmas feast in PS and dancing with Ludo Bagman at the Yule Ball).

Exhibit B: Hermione.  I'm not sure why you dismiss Hermione and Harry's relationship as "just" friendship, when it seems to me that the fact that Hermione is Friend to Harry negates the claim that he views women as either Virgin/Whore (again, I'm not familiar with this theory, so I may be getting what you were trying to say wrong).  And she's not *just* his friend, either.  She's his Wise Woman, as well as being available for emotional support (in GoF).  Furthermore, she's a good role model for Harry.  ^_~ No, really.  Esp. in GoF when Rita was writing those awful things about him and the Slytherins were being insufferable.  She told Harry what my mother used to tell me when I was having trouble with other kids: ignore them.  And yet, she is also ruthless at times (the Polyjuice Potion, hitting Malfoy, Rita Skeeter), and I think that her ambition, intelligence, responsibility, and willingness to go out on a limb really demonstrate to Harry that females are certainly forces to be reckoned with.  But again, Hermione achieves *all* these things *without* being neuter in both the sexual and emotional senses.

Molly Weasel also happens to be is a strong Mother figure, being both infinitely caring *and* matriarchal.  In fact, the only hope I have that Ginny will ever grow into someone I could like is Molly.  If she turns out half as strong as Molly, I suppose I will be satisfied.

In fact, the only females I can think of that Harry ever views in what seems to be a purely sexual manner are Fleur and Cho.  Fleur, I suppose, being the Whore, and Cho being the Virgin?  But by the end of GoF, Harry learns that there is much more to Fleur than her looks.  As for Cho, Harry may have been attracted to her physically, but it is also demonstrated to the reader that she has many respectable traits -- she is kind, considerate, brave, and strong enough to withstand peer pressure.  As far as I can see, *all* the females in Harry's life that aren't supposed to be viewed as farces by the reader (i.e. Trelawney, Lavender, Pavarti) are portrayed, IMO, as strong people -- with the exception of Ginny, who certainly is making headway by GoF -- at least to the point where she defies the female stereotype of being gossipy by keeping Hermione's secrets, and doesn't make a *complete* fool of herself when Ron suggests that she go to the Yule Ball with Harry.

To me, there is no evidence that Harry confines women in his mind to sex-related categories.  In fact, until recently, there is little evidence that he even registered them as in any way different from himself at all -- they were just other *people* to him.

Kel:
>Indeed, Ron (and Harry) tease her bc someone else actually found her
>attractive.

I don't recall Harry teasing her about Krum -- and I was under the impression that Ron did so because he was jealous.


kel:
>There has been discussion not too long ago about the issue of sexuality in
>the stories, and I am hoping that Harry will come to understand that
>females are not just one or the other... when he finally does get around
>to becoming curious about the opposite sex.

I think he *is* curious, at least by GoF, and that he has *always* viewed the females in his life as more than sexual beings.


Kel:
I do wonder if it's simply bc
>Harry (and Ron, by having so many brothers) just really has not been
>exposed to many different types of women while growing up, and bc of his
>preadolescence, it wouldn't occur to him to wonder now. But surely the day
>will come, if it hasn't already, when he realises that he will need to
>give the girls/women in his life a closer look, and see what they have to
>teach him.

I must confess myself to be quite confused.  As far as peers go, who teaches Harry more than Hermione?  And not only in the *obvious* sense, either.  She teaches him to acknowledge and respect his good aspects (the scene in the Potion Riddle room in PS, for instance), she teaches him to be dignified when others are being petty, immature, and cruel (GoF), she's consistently reminding him to look beyond first appearances and to give second chances, she sets a good example of standing up to peer pressure, she shows him how to do the right thing when it isn't always easy...I could go on and on.  To me, Hermione is almost like Harry's conscience, mentor, and friend all in one.  It's a big role for a little girl, isn't it?  But she fills it so well.  And even when he's very angry at her (like when she told McGonagall about the Firebolt), Harry usually recognizes the fact that she's probably right.  When the trio is all together, I think it's Hermione who generally takes the lead (sometimes switching off with Harry), with Ron grumbling but ultimately following her lead.  Which is really quite natural, when you think about it.  Ron may not have much experience with females, but in his household, it's a woman who takes charge and wields the authority.  It's pretty normal for both boys and girls who grow up in matriarchal households to continue with and expect this balance of power in their relationships with the opposite sex.

laura 


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