Hurt-Comfort and reader crushes; Ron; Harry's sensitivity

[Penny Linsenmayer]

No: HPFGUIDX 39311

Hi --

We had a babysitter no-show .... so *I* have a Sat night in front of the computer ....

Pippin said:

<<<<What's Hermione playing at with Viktor 
anyway? Is anybody really comfortable about her being in a  
relationship with a seventeen year old boy?>>>>>>>

Whyever not?  She's either 14/15, and frankly, from her side of it, it appears reasonably innocent.  He definitely has stronger feelings for her; that much is obvious.  But, we don't know *what* she said to him when they were saying their "good-byes" at the end of GoF.  Did she say she'd ask her parents about visiting him in Bulgaria?  Did she let him down gently?  Did she just remain neutral with a "we'll see" sort of attitude?  Will Krum even be back in England in OOP?  Nah, I don't have a problem with it.  Besides, Hermione seems to be the type to be attracted to older men.  We've commented before that she might have a "thing" for successful men (or in the case of Lockhart, men who *appeared* at first blush to be successful).  I also wonder if she doesn't have a thing for *brave* men.  ("He was very brave, wasn't he?" said Hermione ...." at the QWC).  

Because I responded to the notion that Ron appeals to "mature tastes" with derisive laughter, Pippin said:

<<<Okay, you can substitute "jaded and cynical" taste instead <g> >>>

'Fraid I'm still not seeing how this is a "good thing."  Ron appeals to the cynical amongst us?  ????

I said:
> But, seriously ... when does Ron show instances that he can 
*give* comfort?  I've thought hard about this, and I can't really 
honestly come up with anything that falls into what I would 
subjectively rate as "giving comfort." <<<

Pippin responded with:

<<<He invites Harry to play Quidditch when Harry is on edge about 
Sirius in Chapter 10, GoF. That was a very sensitive thing to do 
(pace Hermione). We know that's what helps Harry when he's 
anxious: "Quite apart from wanting to win, Harry found he had 
fewer nightmares when he was tired out after training." PS/SS. 
*Hermione* wants to go to bed, which is understandable, but 
Harry is full of adrenaline. He has a physical  need to burn it off, 
and Hermione just doesn't get it.>>>>>>>>

I wasn't really looking for a comparison of Ron & Hermione's styles in a particular isolated incident.  I was actually hoping to get some instances of Ron giving what I would call "comfort."  Figuring out that Harry might want to play Quidditch was just an instinctive guess based probably on Ron's desire to let off some steam in a physical way.  I think we're meant to know that Hermione doesn't get it; this is underlining that males react to stress differently than females.  Big surprise.  :--)  Mind you, this doesn't make it any less what Harry needed at that moment, but I'm not sure I'd term Ron's action as "comfort" per se.  Maybe we're operating under a different definition of "comfort" is all.  When you originally said that Ron was someone who'd demonstrated an ability to give & receive "comfort," I had an immediate mental image of something very different than what's been suggested so far.  I think I'm thinking of comfort more in the sense of how Hermione responds to Neville after Moody's class or how Sirius responds to Harry when Harry's just seen the dragons or, most classic, how Molly responds to Harry in the hospital wing post-Voldy rebirth.  I suppose that explains my reaction of "Huh?  Ron, a great comforter?"  :--)   

<<<<<<<snip discussion about H&H's first walk around the Lake> In the event, though I will admit Hermione made an effort, I don't see it as particularly comforting. Afterwards, Harry feels "a large weight of anxiety" and doesn't know what to do about it.>>>>>>> 

Giving comfort doesn't mean that you find a solution to the other person's problems.  Just because she can't "fix things" for Harry doesn't mean that she didn't offer comfort or that he didn't find her actions comforting.  After all, he is "grateful" that she brought him some toast from the Great Hall & offered him a chance to take a walk & talk.  :--)

<<<<I think Hermione is a wonderful girl but she's not just about 
perfect (I have no hope of convincing anyone who believes that 
she is. One thing I've learned from this list: love is blind.)>>>>

For the record, I don't think there's any such thing as perfection.  Hermione has her faults.  They just bother me substantially less than Ron's faults.  Harry's faults bother me substantially less than Ron's faults.  It doesn't mean I can't recognize the character flaws in my favorites -- it's just a subjective judgment that those faults bug me far less (or not at all) than those of some of my least favorite characters.  And, Ron falls increasingly lower on my list of favorites; the more I think about him & debate him, the less I like him.  

I said:

>>>I think at this point in the canon, Harry is head & shoulders 
above Ron in the department of being in touch with his feelings 
and being capable of having and responding to his own 
emotions<<<<

Pippin responded:

<<<<Why? Ron seems pretty much at peace with himself by the end 
of GoF. He's made a decision to let go of his grudge against 
Viktor, as shown by  asking for the autograph. He doesn't tease
Hermione about Viktor wanting a "vord". He manages a 
conversation and a handshake with Fleur without turning purple 
and staring. All his concern on the trip home is for Harry, 
Hermione and his brothers. He doesn't express any envy of  
Harry for winning the Tri-wizard gold that I can recall. I just don't 
see this seething bundle of adolescent resentment--if anybody 
embodies that, it's Draco.>>>>>>

I take the points of Amy & others that we only have Harry's POV ... so it's difficult or impossible for me or anyone else to say for certain that Harry is more in touch with his emotions than Ron is.  True enough.  But, looking at the actions of the characters so far, I'd still say that Harry is more sensitive and caring than Ron is.  Yes, Pippin makes some points above about how we might be meant to see Ron as having made a "turn around."  But, I'm not sold yet that it's a permanent change.  I think I'll wait until the end of OOP (at least) before conceding that Ron has resolved all his issues with jealousy, resentment, etc.  I definitely don't think that his asking Krum for an autograph means he's let go of his resentment against Krum.  *If* Hermione continues to see Krum, don't you think Ron is going to have some issues with that?  <g>  

Charisjulia said:

<<<<I think that the most comforting thing about Ron is that he takes 
people as they come. He accepts them for what they are, no questions 
asked. 

GoF, "Beaubatons and Durmstrang": "That was a lie, * Harry,*" said 
Hermione sharply over breakfst, when he told her and Ron what he had 
done "You * didn't* imagine you scar hurting and you know it."

"So what?" said Harry. "He's not going back to Azkaban because of me."

"Drop it," said Ron sharply to Hermione.


Hermione's right here of course. Harry * did* lie. But that's not 
what he wants to hear. Ron isn't handing out moral lectures. He's 
simply accepting Harry's decision and the reasons behind it. Should 
he have done so? Well, that's another story. . . But his attitude is 
the most * comforting* if not anything else.>>>>

Well, my first point would be that Ron doesn't just accept people for who they are.  Lupin is a "werewolf" in Ron's eyes, not Professor Lupin, an excellent DADA instructor who has been especially helpful to Harry.  Hagrid is a stupid git who mentioned his giantess mother where someone could overhear him.  I don't much care for Ron's prejudices ... and yes, I do see them as prejudices so far.  I've heard the counter-arguments ... but I still see him as reactionary and a bit "old school" if you will.  He doesn't understand Hermione's progressive attitudes (progressive vis-a-vis the wizarding world norms that is).  This just seems a huge red flag of potential conflict for the two of them IMHO.

Second, I really don't think that particular incident is evidence that Ron accepts people for "who they are."  It is evidence that he was perceptive enough to know that Harry was more concerned about Sirius' safety than he was about his scar hurting.  I think this is evidence that Hermione was most worried about *Harry* and not so much about what might or might not happen to Sirius.  She was so worried about Harry's safety that she neglected to pick up on what was more important to Harry at that moment.  So, this is good evidence that Hermione is not perfect in fact.  :::smiles at Pippin:::  But, I don't think it makes your point really, Charis Julia.

<<<And, you know, I also think it's telling that Ron is the only person 
that Harry hasn't lied to to date. He just doesn't put that kind of 
pressure on people.>>>

Has he lied to Hermione?  He sort of lied by omission to them both though, didn't he?  He didn't tell them about his scar hurting *at all* for some time, and then when he does tell them, he "can't bear to make Hermione look any more anxious than she already did," so he neglects to mention that he dreamt that Voldemort & Wormtail were planning to kill him.  

In response to my statement that Harry is more in touch with his emotions than Ron at the end of GoF, a stunned Charis Julia argued:


<<<<Wow! Hang on! Harry in touch with his feelings? You sure? <pause>
Well, I'm blown, I truly am. I * never* read Harry as sensitive. 
Never. As for comforting, capable of responding to emotions. . . 
well, I'm going to need some Can(n)on here, I really am.


As far as I can see for the most part Harry tends to be rather more 
than less unaware of others' feelings. His insensitivity in fact 
often reaches the point of downright rudeness. He's definitely abrupt 
more than once to Ginny and both of the Creeveys not to mention Dobby 
and Moaning Myrtle. I know he doesn't like being hero-worshipped but 
I'm sure it does nothing for Colin's confidence to be cold-shouldered 
and brushed off all the time. I love Harry, but he's famous and he's 
just got to learn to deal with that. And you know that little saying 
of Sirius's about men and their inferiors?>>>>

Since when are the Creeveys or Ginny Harry's "inferiors"?  They are all students, yes?  The Creeveys and Ginny are younger to be sure .... but I don't think there's a relationship of superior/inferior at work there.

Since we're having this debate of *what* constitutes canon, it seems not quite right to cite just a JKR interview, but ...

*********************

 Now we've seen hormones kick in in this book. Are we going to see Harry becoming even MORE like Kevin the teenager, you know, [does Kevin impression] 'Sirius, huh, I hate you, I wish you were back in Azkaban'? 
I think Ron's more like that isn't he? Ron's more Kevinish. Harry's got so many worries, he needs his friends - he can't afford to alienate them. 
He's delicate isn't he?
He is. He's more your sensitive hero. And more of that stuff happens. 

***********************
[Source: BBC Newsround chat with JKR, Fall 2000]

Not canon enough, you say?  I'll give a few off-the-top-of-head references but then must cut this short --

**  giving his last chocolate frog to Neville in PS/SS
**  treating Dobby so courteously, even knowing Dobby was about to get him in hot water ...CoS
** his reactions to the Dementors seem evidence of sensitivity & emotional depth to me ... he cries when he hears his father's voice after all
** he tries to make things up with Hermione *twice* in POA ... but both times, it's *Ron* who foils the reconciliation
** he's *worried* through much of GoF
** everything from the point that Harry sees Cedric's murder to the *end* of GoF ... *all* of it shows incredible depth of emotion & sensitivity on Harry's part IMO

I'll try to catalogue all this more specifically ... at *some* point.  In other words, don't hold your breath.  :--)

You really don't read Harry as sensitive?  He seems the very embodiment of sensitive & vulnerable to me.    

Penny





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