Voldemorts Resurrection WAS The Spying Game and the Shrieking Shack

[grey_wolf_c]

No: HPFGUIDX 39736

Naama, watch you tone, please. I was somewhat offended by most of your 
comments in this post, and even if I'm going to pull back my claws, 
being treated of "idiot" and "stupid" in a single post is something 
that I -and possibly anyone else- would be offended at.

Naama wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "grey_wolf_c" <greywolf1 at j...> wrote:
> > See your own #1 condition: Dumbledore couldn't risk having 
> > Voldemort use another resurrection option. We know from PS that 
> > there are many avilable. 
> 
> 
> Where? I don't remember that. 

It's implied. We know that the PS is not the only way to restore 
Voldemort. First off, there's still unicorn's blood, which kept him 
alive and in a good deal of strenght for an entire year. And Dumbledore 
tells Harry that it would only take another servant ("someone else who 
is prepered to fight a loosing battle", liberal translation) to restore 
him. Since simply the servant is not enough (or he would have been back 
with the help of Quirrell), and the PS is not available anymore, we 
must assume that there are other methods available.

Being a follower of general fantasy, and having compiled a sizeble 
essay in the reality rules of half a dozen fantasy worlds, I find it 
likely that there are a number of resurrection techniques in the 
Potterverse, having already seen three of them.
 
> >They must difere in quality, easiness, speed, amount of power 
> >restored and a few other variables, but they could all restore a 
> >dying man's body. Dumbledore wanted V to use this particular one 
> >because 
> > there is a major flaw in it, albeit that flaw is only known to the 
> > greatest experts in the field of potions, i.e. Snape (I say this 
> > because I know you won't dare discuss something that puts Snape so 
> > high). 
> 
> 
> Tom Riddle, after Hogwarts, had disappeared for over fifty years, 
> delving into the darkest of Dark Arts. He was "probably the 
> brightest" of the students that ever attended Hogwarts. Knowing this, 
> you think that Dumbledore would base his entire strategy on the 
> assumption that Snape or he would better Voldemort in his own field 
> of expertise!? Outwitting Voldemort, who "has gone further than any 
> other down the path of immortality" [free quote]? You don't think 
> that makes Dumbledore just a tad ... you know ... arrogant ... to the 
> point of MEGALOMANIA?

It is generally accepted that when you want to become a expert in 
something, you have to specialize. And even if he was the greatest 
student ever, the potion he used was NOT one of the spells he had been 
looking for: he wanted inmortality, but we know (by his own words) that 
the potion he used does not give inmortality, just gives him back his 
own body. To quote (Sp. GoF Edition, ch. 33, liberal translation)
"I desired to embrace mortal life again, before searching for the 
inmortal one"

Thus, the potion cannot be one of the ones he investigated himself, nor 
did he invent it. The words of Voldemort hint that he already knew 
about it, but it could be interpreted one way or the other. The only 
thing we know for sure is that (Sp. GoF Edition, ch. 33, liberal 
translation):
"The potion that has revived me tonight is an old treasure of dark 
magic"
Snape is a grand master of potions, and we know that he knows dark 
magic potions: the polyjuice potion is in the dark arts section, so it 
is a dark art potion itself. It is not impossible to believe that Snape 
suggested the potion to Voldemort at some point in the past. In fact, 
it is very probable, especially if Snape was of the inner circle: 
Voldemort would have used him to advance his search on inmortality 
methods. We know Snape probably knows of this potion, in fact. That, or 
there are so many other methods to "stopper death" that I should simply 
rest my case.

Voldemort knows of Dark Magic, but has spent his life looking for 
methods to gain inmortality, not mortality. Snape knows of Potions, ALL 
potions, including some that will restore someone's body (even if using 
methods as indeniably evil as the one's needed in the restoration 
potion)

> >>Instead, Dumbledore allows Voldemort to come back, betting that 
> *all*of the following circumstances will be true:
> > > 
> > > 1. Voldemort won't discover some other method Dumbledore doesn't 
> >>know about.
> > 
> > Dumbledore is forcefully seeking this one: he leaves a big, great 
> >exit door with neon-pink flashing lights on top saying "Follow me", 
> >so he doesn't notice the small trapdoor under his feet wich would 
> >make him unstopable.
> > 
> 
> And that's a *good* plan - relying on the stupidity of an enemy who 
> is known to be extremely clever?! I'm sorry, but does that really 
> make sense to you? Because it sure doesn't to me.  

What part of the plan do you not understand, Naama? Goading someone 
into doing something he wants to do? Is not as if Dumbledore was trying 
to cut all of his options (going back to the problem #1, where he would 
look for a method that Dumbledore didn't think of, didn't know or 
couldn't counter). He is trying to have him select the one that suits 
Dumbledore best, and he is doing it with velvet touch. Voldemort may be 
intelligent, but Dumbledore is even more so, since he's got two 
lifetimes of experience. 

In any chess game, or any other competition, including war, the best 
strategy is always to guide your enemy through a path he already wants 
to take rather than block all his exits and hope he will not find the 
exit you didn't see: THAT would be the stupid thing to do. Goading 
Voldemort into the path of lest resistance is exactly what needs to be 
done.
 
> > This four conditions get down to "Harry will survive", which (in my 
> > theory, derived from Pip's) gets a neat True/False answer: Harry 
> > isn't needed for Dumbledore's plan to defeat Voldemort. If he's 
> > killed, more's the pity, but it's a sacrifice to be done to defeat 
> > Voldemort.  This definetely agrees with Dumbledore the Grey figure.
> 
> I have to disagree. That makes Dumbledore Black. If Crouch Sr. is 
> frowned upon for allowing Unforgivables against DEs and sending 
> suspects to Azkaban without trial, you think that allowing an 
> INNOCENT boy to die (even if for a good cause) can be considered 
> GREY?! No. Sorry, it's bad. If Dumbledore made that cold hearted, 
> cold blooded choice then he is much worse than even Crouch Sr. 

Dumbledore is NOT omniscient. He certainly didn't see Cruch!Moody 
coming, and I doubt he knew about the Portkey!Cup. I don't know what 
his plans for the revival were, although I assume he was expecting 
something by then (I would've expected something during the Quidditch 
Final). If he had known, I repeat, he would have given Harry something 
more than Cedric to defend himself. Dumbledore has always taken good 
care of Harry, and he continues to nurture him so that he survives 
Voldemort, but I don't think Harry is *the* indispensable piece of the 
game. Harry may be the most powerful weapon that Dumbledore has against 
Voldemort, but he's replaceable (but not "dispensable"). I doubt 
Dumbledore believes he himself is indispensable, either, or any other 
main character we know of. Dumbledore has had 10+ years to plan this 
war, and I doubt his only working with an A plan: he probably has plans 
all the way to Z.
  
> > > 7. After all that rigamarole, the resulting weakness in Voldemort
> > > will actually be enough to ensure his defeat.
> > 
> > That is, in fact, the basis of the plan: Dumbledore searched for a 
> > resurrection form that would ensure Voldemort's defeat, since it 
> >would the only way to have Voldy play right into his hands. Years 
> >back, he discussed it with Snape (and maybe a few others), and Snape 
> >provided the perfect formula (the one used by Voldemort). The next 
> >thing was, of course, dispose of all other ways of resurrection so V 
> >had only one option available. Since that is probably impossible, 
> >Dumbledore worked on making it the easiest of the best options. 
> >Since the easiest option was the Philosopher's Stone, he first hid 
> >it and then destroyed it (here we see the first sacrifice of the 
> >fight: Flammel, who had eons of life still in front of him). 
> 
> 
> If Dumbledore was as ruthless as you paint him here, he wouldn't have 
> hidden the stone in the first place - he would have destroyed it 
> immediately. And he wouldn't have waited for Flammel to agree (in 
> that "little chat" they had). He would have just done it, with or 
> without permission.

When do I paint him ruthless, Naama? The fact that he doesn't destroy 
the stone right away, more than anything else, paints him grey: he is 
not going to sacrifice a single life that isn't strictly necessary. 
Nicolas Flamel is dead now, since he knew how to create another PS, but 
until Dumbledore didn't see first hand just how close Voldemort had 
been to getting the stone he did not decide for the easiest defence: 
destroy it. As always, he takes the right path before the easy one. 
Only when the right path takes you to the wrong path do you have to cut 
where it's sane to prevent the infection from spreading.

> >Then, he continued to cut his other options one by one, but always 
> >leaving the Riddle home free (Dumbledore is the owner of the 
> >house "for financilal purposes").
> > 
> 
> ^-^ I've always assumed that Voldemort is the wealthy owner. If Tom 
> Riddle Sr. was an only child, then Tom Riddle Jr. was the only 
> grandson, and therefore the inheritor of the estate. 

The house changed hands many times in the years after their deaths, and 
at first people came to live there, even if they quickly left 
aterwards. Only in the latest years has the owner kept it without 
going. At first I thought of Malfoy, but I don't think he would 
continue to pay Frank Bryce. Only Dumbledore would do that.
 
> > Grey Wolf, who doesn't believe in Evil!Dumbledore, but does believe 
> in Dumbledore the Grey, since it pairs well with his own name and 
> >with the other greatest magician of fantasy books: Gandalf the Grey.
> 
> Gandalf greyness relates to rank among wizards, where the colors -
> brown, grey, white - represent venerability, the colors symbolizing 
> wisdom and power acquired through age. It had nothing to do with 
> moral ambiguity. Besides, Dumbledore is 'the White' - *Albus* 
> Dumbledore, remember?
>
> Naama

Without discussing this point, I was only refering to the colour 
similarity, nothing more, nothing less.

Hope that helps,

Grey Wolf, who was offended by Naama's post and has had to snip quite a 
lot of this one to prevent it from becoming a flame war.