[HPforGrownups] Re: Spying game/ Snape and the TT

[Edblanning at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 39842

Pip:
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Edblanning at a... wrote:
> 
> > Now, returning to LOON mode, this is something where there *is* a 
> > right answer!
> > 
> >Debbie:
> > 
> > > > In the Potions class, Hermione offers to help Neville, and 
> Snape 
> > > cuts her off 
> > > > coldly with the comment that he didn't ask her to show off.  
> > > Hermione went 
> > > > pink and shut up.
> > > 
> > Pip:
> > > Errr... no, she doesn't. She helps Neville when he asks her by 
> > > hissing instructions at him out of the side of her mouth. I guess 
> > > this is an example of the way two people can read a scene in 
> totally 
> > > different ways  - because to me the point here is that Snape 
> > > *doesn't* push it. He doesn't take House points off Gryffindor 
> here - 
> > > even though he shows later in the Boggart class that he was 
> perfectly 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > Since Debbie's gone to bed, I'll defend her :-)
> > 
> > POA (UK PB, 96)
> > 
> > "'Please, sir,' said Hermione, 'please, I could help Neville put it 
> right - '
> > 'I don't remember asking you to show off, Miss Granger,' said 
> Snape, coldly, 
> > and Hermione went as pink as Neville."
> >

Pip:
> 
> (Since I'm now back from work, I'll defend myself [grin] )
> 
> You misunderstand me. I am referring to immediately *after* Hermione 
> goes pink, when Neville moans "Help me!", and the bit later in the 
> scene where 
> 'Hermione was muttering instructions to him [Neville]out of the 
> corner of her mouth, so Snape wouldn't see.' p. 97
> Snape refers to this in the boggart class scene, where he is 
> sarcastic about Neville being unable to do anything difficult 'unless 
> Miss Grainger is hissing instructions in his ear' p. 100
> 
> My point is that here is an example of Snape letting something go - 
> he was quite clearly aware of exactly what Hermione was doing, but 
> obviously didn't think it worth pursuing (probably because while 
> Neville was being given heavy hints, he was at least preparing the 
> potion himself). His behaviour in the Shack and the Hospital is quite 
> unlike his behaviour to Hermione elsewhere and, IMO, shows that it 
> was *important* she keep quiet. See  #39662 for an analysis of when 
> and why he shuts her up in the shack and hospital.
> 
> 
Eloise:
And so now I'll defend *myself* ;-)

Yes, I did misunderstand you. From where I'm sitting, it sounded like you 
were denying the incident Debbie referred to took place. Yes, of course what 
you quote *did* happen, but only afterwards. I understood 'No she doesn't', 
to refer to Hermione offering to help and then going pink and shutting up, 
rather than to simply the shutting up itself, which JKR says she did and as 
you point out,  technically, she didn't.

However....the fact that Snape knew after the event that Hermione had helped 
Neville does not necessarily mean that he was aware of it whilst she was 
doing it and thought it not worth pursuing. JKR specifically mentions that 
Hermione was muttering out of the corner of her mouth in order not to be 
detected.
So...either he didn't know until the end result - and what other explanation 
could there be, other than that meddlesome Granger girl had whispered him 
help, or he did know, but rather than thinking it *not worth* pursuing, 
*chose* not to pursue it, appreciating the greater dramatic possibilities of 
letting them think they'd got away with it, let all the Gryffindors think 
they had got one over on him and then punish them for it. How much better to 
go for the dramatic climax, rather than get involved in a slanging match with 
a third year.

I *do* understand why your theory says he shut her up in the Shack and the 
hospital wing - and I happen to think it's a very good theory. But in the 
classroom, there are other dynamics at work. We have discussed that Snape 
finds Hermione a disruptive element. She interrupts his flow and she shows 
off her knowledge when he wants to be the centre of attention himself. In 
this situation, he's achieved all he needs for the present: she's not getting 
attention except from Neville. *And* he can turn the situation to his 
advantage at the end of the lesson.

In the Shack and the Hospital Wing, those dynamics aren't present. He's not 
being a teacher, he's acting in a completely different role as a member of 
Dumbledore's anti-Darkness team (with a healthy helping of personal revenge 
on the side). That in itself can explain his different behaviour. 

As can MAGIC DISHWASHER. I'm not saying you aren't right, just that I don't 
think it's the only possible explanation.
.........................
Pip quotes me quoting her:

> Pip:

> > > Incidentally, how many of us have spotted that Dumbledore is an 
> > > Animagi? Any ideas on his transfigured form (a phoenix??)
> > 
> > On what basis did you come to the conclusion that he was an 
> Animagus? 
> <Snip>
> However it has also been pointed out to me (when I made an animagus 
> > speculation about Harry) that JKR has said there will be no more 
> > animagi revealed.
> > 
> > OTOH, perhaps that's a Dobby clue and he has been revealed in a way 
> > which we've (I've) missed.
> > 
> > Eloise.
> > who really *is* going to bed now.
> 
> I'm basing it on the fact that when Hermione looked up the registered 
> Animagi, she said that there have only been seven *this century*. 
> (PoA p. 258 UK hardback). Dumbledore, of course, would have been 
> registered in the previous Century. Also on the fact he was the 
> Transfiguration teacher. 
> > > 
> Of course, if JKR says it's no go, it's no go. 
> Unless there's another revealing clue I haven't spotted [grin].
> 

Which is all good evidence. I have to say that in all honesty I think it 
would be very surprising if Dumbledore were *not* an Animagus. Perhaps there 
*is* something there that we've missed - or perhaps she wasn't quite telling 
the truth - or perhaps, he *is*, but won't be revealed as such. The latter 
might fill the criteria, I think.

.........................
Snape and the TT

Bard:
> But when Fudge said: "They can't be in two places at once" then it 
> should have been Snape who got the light bulb off in his head. Of 
> course, he'd have had to prove they mis-used the TT and maybe he 
> wouldn't be able to.

I think Snape's anger at this point stems from the fact that he knows Harry 
and Hermione have secured Sirius' escape, knows Hermione has the TT and 
suspects what they've done. 
I also think that Dumbledore's ' That will do Severus.............Unless you 
are suggesting that Harry and Hermione are able to be in two places at once' 
is a coded message - 'You're right. I know about it. Now shut up.' He gives 
in remarkably quickly at this point, doesn't he? Dumbledore's calm words 
evidently gave a very strong message that this was *not* to be pursued.

I *think* that we have no indication that Snape has talked to Dumbledore at 
this point. He's been interviewed by Fudge and Dumbledore has been talking to 
Sirius and then Harry and Hermione, whilst Snape is apparently still with 
Fudge.
Assuming for the moment (sorry, Pip) that they don't have a MAGIC DISHWASHER, 
then Severus genuinely doesn't know that Sirius is innocent, he wasn't 
earlier faking what he says about the fairy tale that Sirius has spun for 
Dumbledore, he genuinely thinks that Dumbledore has only just had his mind 
changed about Sirius and disagrees with him. 

But, he knows to shut up in front of Fudge if Dumbledore warns him. His 
loyalty is to Dumbledore, not Fudge.

....................
I couldn't resist having some fun with Pip's imaginary scenario in which 
Snape forces Dumbledore's hand in obtaining Lupin's resignation:

Pip:
>**IMAGINARY Scenario One**.
>After a year of Snape telling him Lupin cannot be trusted, Dumbledore 
>and Snape have a post-Sirius-Escape discussion which goes something 
>like 
>
>Snape: "I have told you and told you that Lupin might be working with 
>Black, given you reasons why he might be a Death Eater [see Pippin's 
>excellent series of posts on Ever So Evil Lupin- #39822 is a good 
>summary], argued that he isn't reliable about taking his potions - 
>and look what happened tonight. He ran after Sirius without even 
>thinking it might be a good idea to warn you; didn't take his potion; 
>nearly killed Harry; and is currently wandering around the Forbidden 
>Forest in werewolf form. Even if you *still* believe he is on our 
>side he's too much of a loose cannon to have in Hogwarts." 

Eloise:

 "Don't you think that's a bit of a case of the cauldron calling the kettle 
Black, if you'll forgive the pun," Dumbldore answered, a twinkle naturally 
playing in his light blue eyes, "after all, Severus, what did you do? Did you 
tell me you were going after Lupin? Don't you think it a mite arrogant, 
competant multi-tasker though you are, to go after an unsafe werewolf (I 
don't claim to have your knowledge of potions, but couldn't you just have 
taken the potion *with* you, Severus?) and a mass murderer *alone*? It's just 
as well Sirius wasn't intent on killing Harry, isn't it? A lot of protection 
*you* were, after you'd let those children out-duel you", he tutted sadly. 

 "And then there's the matter of the Map. Yes, Severus, the Map. The one you 
left on Lupin's desk, the one that I will not even know about until the end 
of the next book. The one that will fall into the hands of Voldemort's most 
loyal servant and allow him to murder his own father. Couldn't you just have 
pocketed it Severus? You *are* Head of Slytherin, are you not?

 "This isn't the first time you've gone off on your own...... erm.... bat, is 
it?" he continued, the corners of his mouth twitching in what Snape suspected 
was a suppressed smile, "Did you share your misgivings about Quirrell? Didn't 
I find you had tried to get past Fluffy yourself, rather than tell me that 
that troll was a diversion to allow Quirrell an attempt at stealing the 
Philosopher's Stone?

Dear, dear, Severus. And you think *Remus* is a loose canon."

Eloise
(who is just having fun, is very well aware that there are theories as to why 
Snape didn't take the potion to Lupin and doesn't want to start all that up 
again. Especially not now that we've decided that Snape Is Competant)

An acronym - an archaeological one, James - CIST (Competance Is Snape's 
Trademark)



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