[HPforGrownups] Re: Snape-Quirrelmort Conundrum/Time-Turner

[Edblanning at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 39844

Debbie:
> Yes, the conversation in the forest is terribly ambiguous to us, but not, 
> apparently, to Quirrell.
> Quirrell himself indicates to Harry when Harry confronts him at the Mirror 
> that he was well aware that Snape was not trying to bolster Quirrell's 
> loyalty to Voldemort.  He discusses Snape's countercurse at the Quidditch 
> match, "trying to save you."  And regarding the conversation in the 
> Forbidden 
> Forest, Quirrell tells Harry, "He was on to me by that time, trying to find 
> out how far I'd got. He suspected me all along. Tried to frighten me -- as 
> though he could, when I had Lord Voldemort on my side."  That seems to me 
> to 
> be an unambiguous statement, which of course Voldemort heard behind the 
> turban.  If Quirrell understood Snape's real meaning, then Voldemort 
> certainly did, too.  So while Voldemort may have believed that Snape was 
> still acting as a double agent loyal to him at the beginning of PS/SS (and 
> I 
> do like the double agent theory), Quirrell's language, IMO, clearly 
> indicates 
> that he understood Snape to be  working against Quirrell and that Quirrell 
> 

Eloise:
You're right, of course. Even if he didn't understand the meaning at the time 
of the conversation, he seems to now. Although I think there's still a 
*little* ambiguity there.
But of course it meshes entirely with Voldemort's knowing that (presumably) 
snape has 'left him for ever'. Alhough.....Voldemort does say, 'I *believe* 
[my emphasis] has left me for ever', which leaves a little leeway there, I 
think.

Debbie:
> 
> I also thought about the possibility (quite likely, IMO) that Snape did not 
> know that Voldemort was inside Quirrell's turban, and was trying to prevent 
> Quirrell from getting the Stone for himself.  But I don't think that using 
> that premise I can reach the conclusion that Voldemort still thought Snape 
> 

Eloise:
I don't know...If he made out he thought Quirrell was out for himself and 
that he wanted it for Voldemort....And Quirrell knows that he really knows 
that he's working for Voldemort. But there are still problems.

But you know what intrigues me? Why couldn't Quirrell get the stone out of 
the mirror, if he wanted it for Voldemort and not himself? 

Debbie:
> nape specifically asked Quirrell to meet him in the Forbidden 
> Forest, far from prying ears.  Since Snape was interfering with Voldemort's 
> plans for Quirrell to kill Harry, this would have been a perfect time for 
> Voldemort to reveal himself and demand Snape's loyalty.  I can't think of 
> any 
> reason why he does not, if he doesn't suspect Snape.  This suggests to me 
> that Voldemort already had grave doubts about Snape's continued loyalty.  I 
> 


Eloise:
Well, come to that they could have paid a little visit to Lucius and all the 
other DEs over the hols and demanded loyalty from all of them. But he was 
still weak (ashamed to let anyone else see him?) and powerless. He may just 
have been biding his time until he regained his powers. And yes, I'm sure he 
*did* want to see how Snape was behaving.

But...I've just thought of another 'but', all this comes from Quirrell, not 
Voldemort himself, doesn't it? Quirrell must have wanted to put himself in 
the best light in Voldemort's beady red eyes. I still think that Snape must 
have behaved in an incredibly circumspect way, given his suspicions.

Debbie:
 And, yes, I've had a lot 
> of trouble with the idea that at the end of GoF Snape is sent out to 
> reestablish his double agent role, because I think that would be suicide.  
> He may be recruiting another mole in the Voldemort organization, but he 
> 

Eloise:
Sure. I don't see him going to confront Voldemort himself, just yet. I assume 
he's infiltrating or information gathering. I'm sure the task must be 
Voldemort-related, as he is sent off immediately; Hagrid's mission to the 
giants waits until the holidays. I assume Dumbledore wants an immediate 
appraisal of the situation from someone who understands. I don't think the 
DEs know he's disloyal yet as he hasn't been bad-mouthed in Azkaban like 
Pettigrew. A DE who was known to have cut a deal would surely have attracted 
the highest opprobrium.

But this is one thing to which we're sure (I hope!) to get an answer one way 
or another over the course of the rest of the series, so I think it's wise 
not to be too dogmatic.


> But then again, I'm as suspicious as Moody.
> 
Glad to hear it ;-)

Eloise
Who had a significant thought regarding the TT, whilst lying in bed listening 
to the Dawn Chorus this morning, but  can't remember it now! I know it was to 
do with its implications for free will. If I stop thinking about it, maybe it 
will come back. 






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]