Dishwashers (long)/Darrins Fluffy question (one-liner)

[grey_wolf_c]

No: HPFGUIDX 39908

Pippin wrote:
> So, according to a) and b) there never was a puppy-hunt. Fudge 
> is giving the misleading impression that the Ministry was 
> pursuing Black prior to his attack on the Muggles, when in fact 
> they didn't have a clue. They not only didn't catch up with him 
> first, they weren't chasing him at all.  If it hadn't been for 
> Pettigrew's supposed heroism, Black would have got away clean. Very 
> ingenious, and in character for Fudge, except that the person in 
> charge of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement at the 
> time was the now discredited  Barty Crouch, Sr. Why would 
> Fudge be trying to make him look good now, twelve years after 
> the fact?

It makes the MoM look better (not especially good, mind you, since they 
are partially responsible for the 12 muggles), but, as you say, it's 
in-charater for Fudge to take any oportunity to make the MoM shine, as 
if they really did their jobs.

> Or is Fudge covering for Dumbledore? Because this 
> really makes Dumbledore look useless--he spends twelve 
> hours or whatever totally involved (no multi-tasking for him!) in 
> arranging some extra protection for  the one person who already 
> has more protection than anyone else, while a murderer is on 
> the loose and a threat to innocent people, twelve of whom 
> eventually die.

Dumbledore was multitasking: as well as looking for the ancient magics 
to protect what is, after all, a delicate object (do you really want me 
to do a post on the 1001 ways of killing a baby? I thought not) from 
any number of DEs possibly looking for a way to take their ex-master's 
place, he manages to talk to Hagrid and give him instructions and also 
finds time to *create* the protection (finding the correct ritual was 
possibly harder than putting it up, since it didn't involve standing 
stones or anything similarly ancient. I'm really starting to wonder 
what the "ancient magic" is, you know).

> BTW, if Dumbledore didn't know about the Secret Keeper switch, 
> what made him so sure that Pettigrew was really a Death Eater? 
> Pettigrew could have been in hiding because he put the Death 
> Eaters' best man in Azkaban, just as he claimed.  Would 
> Dumbledore allow a known Death Eater to murder a man whose 
> only crime was choosing to live as a harmless rat? 

OK, I know the post was big and all that, but I *did* cover this one: 
Azkaban is full of DEs saying that Pettigrew is a traitor to Voldemort, 
since he caused his downfall while being secret keeper. Hagrid has been 
there. So have other people, some of which may have even got out alive. 
It only takes one, after all.
 
> What troubles me about the whole MAGIC DISHWASHER 
> scenario is that it's all predicated on the idea that Voldemort can't 
> be killed while he's a disembodied spirit. Dumbledore has to 
> force him to re-embody so that he can be destroyed, lest 
> Dumbledore perish of old age before Harry is ready to carry on 
> the fight.
> 
> There must have been some way to destroy the disembodied 
> Voldemort, or he would have had no reason to stay hidden. 
> Perhaps it was a means, such as Dementors, that Dumbledore 
> would never use. But the mere threat of it was enough to keep 
> Voldemort in hiding. In the twelve years before Pettigrew returned 
> to him, Voldemort managed to kill exactly one person. That 
> situation doesn't change  if Dumbledore dies.  It changes if 
> Voldemort comes back. 

There are several answers to this one, all of them based on the idea 
that the vapour form is immortal. But, let's start with a little canon 
(or Marina will come around throwing insults of uncanonity at me): 
(GoF, ch. 33, Sp. ed., liberal tranlation) "I, that have gone further 
than anyone in the road to immortality. You know my objective: conquer 
death. And then I was put to test, and it resulted that one of my 
experiments worked... because I didn't die eventhough the curse should 
have killed me."

There are disadvantages for Voldemort while in this state: he is 
powerless (except for possesion, which he uses to survive), and his 
strenght is close to none, and is seeping away. Also, his lack of 
corporality prevents him from doing anything appart from scheeming. 
There are, on the other hand, advantages. He cannot be traped, nor 
killed, and can indeed "live" for as long as he wants by possesing 
bodies of animals or people. And he can still scheme, which is what 
makes him dangerous. As I've said several times in the last week, there 
must be a way for Voldemort to regain his body that will make him 
invincible, and Dumbledore knows what the method is (the famous magic 
dishwasher).

Dumbledore must therefore devise a plan that will have Voldemort use 
any other method appart from the dishwasher before Voldemort realises 
he's one dishwasher from total power. Thus, Dumbledore finds the 
potion, basicaly good, but with a fatal flaw: a smallprint letter that 
isn't included in most of the potion's descriptions (never use muggle 
bones and servants with lifedebts to the enemy when using an enemy with 
love shield) since the chances of that happening are so scarce that 
no-one though it possible. (The smallprint is the product of a tired 
mind. Not to be taken too seriously until ratified by a defender of 
MAGIC DISHWASHER with full mental capabilities. Usable as an example. 
May contain nuts).

> Voldemort has to come back before he can resume his career 
> as a ruthless killer. If he refrains from killing, Dumbledore has 
> no interest in him. He doesn't care who rules the wizarding world 
> and he doesn't care about immortality. As long as they're not 
> aiding Voldemort, Flamel and Fudge and even Lucius Malfoy can 
> do as they please with Dumbledore's blessing. Dumbledore 
> isn't trying to prevent Voldemort from coming back as an 
> immortal. He's trying to keep Voldemort from coming back at all.

I'm not sure where you're going with this (which means: is it aa attack 
against MAGIC DISHWASHER?). Dumbledore has been biding his time, since 
there was a stalemate, waiting for Voldemort to make his first move. 
During that plan, he has devised plans, discarted the ones that were 
too reckless, dangerous, etc. and ordering the rest in the A,B,C plan 
chain. He's also been searching and destroying all the enchanted 
dishwashers he could put his hands on. He's also been very busy running 
the MoM from Hogwarts, and I'd imagine that putting as many 
difficulties in Lucius (and other corrupt politicians) path as he could 
manage.

> Applying Grey Wolf's strategy lesson, Voldemort would have tried 
> his best scheme for coming back first. The first and best option 
> was for a faithful servant to return to him...for this Voldemort was 
> willing to endure ten horribly painful years of staving off death by 
> sheer effort of will. He might have been lying about that, but why? 
> Surely not to gain sympathy <g>.
> 
>  Each successive scheme  for coming back, including 
> persuading someone to steal the Stone for him, using a 
> possessed body to steal the Stone, etc.  must have been less 
> desireable than the one preceding it. Why would Dumbledore 
> choose the best option to facilitate  when Voldemort himself had 
> given up on it?

The best (read: easiest) option was the stone. We don't know how, but 
if Voldemort had managed to get hold of it, he probably would've been 
immortal (maybe a non-flawed version of the potion, with the stone as 
main or only component). When that didn't work, he went for the next 
one, in *easiness*: the potion, for which he needed another servant 
(the first one was a little burnt out). If he had read a little more 
about the potion or if his copy of the incantation had included the 
smallprint, he would have started looking for an apropiate dishwasher 
(not as easy, but safer), but he didn't, so he started to colect all 
the components... and the rest, is history.

>  Voldemort is in successively worse positions after PS and CoS. 
> Dumbledore was *winning*...why take the chance that Pettigrew 
> will flee to Voldemort before Harry has a chance to spare his 
> life?

He may be loosing battles, but he cannot loose the war. If nothing 
else, he can wait for two (wizard) generations to pass while he lives 
off the animals in Albania, and then use another suitable vessel to 
look for an enchanted dishwasher, now that Dumbledore is dead and 
everyone else has forgotten about him. 

What happened to the argument "Pettigrew was there because Hagrid had 
caught him trying to scape from Hogwarts"? I never did know if it got 
refuted. If it did, I'll think of another reason for Peter to be there. 
I sort of liked the idea of Hagrid getting hold of Voldemort's wand... 
I also liked AmyZ and your solution. Well, whatever works.

> Finally, this last argument against Dumbledore the extremely 
> grey. Dumbledore's relationships are built on trust. Those who 
> have known him best and longest trust him most: Snape, 
> McGonagall, and most tellingly  Fawkes, whom only loyalty can 
> tame. LeCarre spymasters may be revered, but they are not 
> trusted except by the most gullible of their tools, and those never 
> last long in the Spying Game.

I haven't read LeCarre, but I *have* read Tom Clancy, where the good 
guys always in because the main good characters trusts each other. And 
remember: keep your friend close, and your enemies even closer... so 
you can see when they're going to make their move.
 
> Pippin, wondering whether the grave yard post will refute all this.

We'll just have to wait and see, won't we? As always, my parries here 
are subjct to change if Pip's theories disagree with any of my points.

-----------------------
Darrin Burnett asked:
-- Whatever happened to Fluffy, anyway?
JKR tells us (in an interview, I think) that he's living in the forest.

Hope that helps,

Grey Wolf