The Spying Game Part II - I want you to DIE, Mr Potter.

[grey_wolf_c]

No: HPFGUIDX 40059

Alexander wrote, on thew spying theory (aka MAGIC DISHWASHER): 
> Indeed, an excellent work. Actually, I have always been a
> fan of the idea that Dumbledore-Voldemort war was waged
> mostly by spies and agents, and I liked your work a lot.

Can we count you in as a convinced listee, then? The theory fits and, 
if you're the same kind of war fan I am (which looks probable, by 
reading your post), I'm sure you'll love all its ramifications.

> *** If "Spying Games" theory is true, then Voldemort had
> made a BIG mistake ***
>
>   Duel At The Graveyard is not the last battle of the War
> Between HP and TMR/V. But it is the decisive battle. For
> Voldemort, failure to kill Harry means losing the war. From
> now on, he can only hope for a miracle.
> 
> <snip "decisive battle theory">
> 
>   In 1995, Voldemort failed to kill Harry. In 1998, we will
> see Voldemort brought down, his DE's, dementors and giants
> scattered and annihilated. He will be *finished* in 1998,
> but he was *defeated* in 1995 - on the small graveyard near
> the village of Little Gangleton.

>From a purely military point of view, your reasoning and theory is 
probably correct. I believe that the Graveyard scene is possibly one of 
the turnovers of the series (it fits metathinking too, since it's in 
the *middle* of the series, but metathnking is not fair play). There 
are two things I want to point out, though: most of the decisive 
battles were not identified as such until *after* the war, when 
historians could examine all the evidence and point out: "there they 
should have commited their forces. They didn't, thus, they lost. It was 
the decisive battle, and they didn't see it." The trouble, when you're 
in a war, is identifying the battle as decisive.

Yes, Voldemort probably made a mistake at not managing to kill Harry, 
but it is not as terrible a mistake as it wuld be in a muggle war, 
because there is another objective in Voldemort's mind: inmortality. If 
Voldemort manages to find a way into inmortality before Dumbledore can 
destroy him, battles will mean nothing, because he cannot be defeaten. 
He will keep reviving until he wins. From behind the perfect defense, 
you only have to wait until your enemy makes a mistake, and (from an 
infinite lenght of time point of view) that mistake, sooner or later, 
will be made.

>   And one more thought for future consideration: was it
> really Voldemort who arranged the Cup to be a portkey *back*
> to the Hogwarts? Are you sure it was not Dumbledore? Or
> (grin) Snape?
> 
> Sincerely yours,
> Alexander Lomski,
> Gryffindor/Slytherin crossbreed,
> always happy to throw weird ideas into community.

The trouble with that idea is that neither Dumbledore nor Snape knew 
that the porkey!cup plan existed. They both believed that Harry was 
safe while in Hogwarts. Thus, they couldn't have tricked the cup do 
that it was two-ways. The other possibility is that the cup was 
altready enchanted as a portkey, to get whomever touched it to the 
entrance of the maze, and Crouch!Moody, being uncapable of destroying 
that enchantment, simply put one before it: the one that sends you to 
the graveyard.


--------------------------
Zöe said:
> I would like to throw out one thing that I think may tie into this.
> Many have made a great deal about why didn't Voldemort use any old
> wizard's blood, yet Voldemort insisted on using Harry's blood for the
> potion. I believe he's used Harry's blood because Harry's blood
> carries much of what makes him powerful. In fact, I believe that the
> only reason Voldemort can touch Harry is because he used Harry's 
> blood.
>
> Zoë

I would normally agree with that, but thinking over the descriptions of 
Harry's reactions on PS and GoF, I have to agree with Pip's basis that 
Voldemort maybe still feels pain at touching Harry, but that, now 
having his own body, he can pretend he can touch him. It had naver 
really made sense that Harry still feels the pain of having Voldemort 
close and that he doesn't. The important thing, though, it what *he* 
believes, which is that he is now protected in the same way Harry is 
(whatever that protection may be). If that is true or it's just 
Dumbledore's work of misinformation, we'll have to wait and see. I'd go 
for the second option, though (but only through metathinking, and that 
is not fair play).

--------------------------
Richelle asked:
> This may be an incredibly stupid question, however, I'll ask it
> anyway, to get it out of my system if nothing else.  What exactly do
> we know about the potion that Voldemort used to resurrect himself? 
> Is this listed in potion books for anyone to look up?  Do vapours/
> ugly baby creatures often resurrect themselves using this potion?  If 
> not, how does Voldemort know about this? If so, why wasn't the elder
> Riddle's tomb more closely guarded?  Or bones removed entirely?  If, 
> however, this is something Voldemort "thought up" himself, could he 
> have needed Harry's blood for another reason?  A reason, say, he
> didn't want even his followers to know about?  Is this possible?  Or 
> has my imagination gotten carried away?
>
> Richelle

The short answer is: we know almost NOTHING of the potion (only that 
gives you a mortal body). However, many listees know that I hate short 
answers, so I'm going for the long one. 

There are things we can deduct from what has been said. For example, 
it's doubtful that Voldemort thought it up, since he is neither a 
potion master nor is the potion included in his field of study. He 
spent his life looking for inmortality methods, and the potion is a way 
to become mortal (basically, to get a new body). The potion looks like 
a dark art, judging from it's components (ghoulish behaviour and 
enemy's blood and *servant's* -not friends- flesh), but it's still not 
the sort of thing Voldemort would've created.

So, what is it used for, then? I'd imagine that in the dim past, it was 
created by wizards who wanted to have a quick way of curing themselves. 
if they've been badly hurt in a duel, for example, and half his head is 
missing, including an eye, and part of his leg, etc (picture Moody), 
they could use the potion to get a brand new body, and be back to the 
fray inmediately.

Your last question implies that Voldemort needed Harry's blood for some 
other reason besides the potion. I find that unlikely, since he used it 
all in the potion. If he had wanted, he could've told Peter to keep 
some for later use. He didn't have to explain, just order, but he 
didn't.

For the rest of the questions, I'm falling back into the FAQ of MAGIC 
DISHWASHER (see posts #39662 and #39854 for the longest versions).

This theory, which has grown to envelope almost all the unknowns of HP 
(with diverse grades of plausibility) tells us that some of the DEs, 
maybe Snape himself, being the expert in potions of the DEs, discovered 
the potion and told Voldemort about it but, being a potion that did the 
exact opposite of what Voldemort wanted, he just filed away the info 
until he once again needed it: after the PS fiasco. 

Dumbledore knew about it too, but knew even more: that it was *flawed* 
(for example, that it shouldn't be used with the flesh of someone with 
a life debt). I suggested that maybe the formula can be found in the 
restricted section of Hogwarts (where Dumbledore read about it), and in 
some other liberies, which Voldemort must have visited in his almost 
futile search for inmortality.

Now, why did they bones stay where they were buried if Dumbledore knew 
about the potion? Well, the important thing is that the potion is 
flawed. There are other ways to achive Voldemorts objective of 
inmortality, some of which are *not* flawed, and Dumbledore didn't want 
Voldemort to use one of those, so he made things as easy as he could so 
V would use the *wrong* method: the potion. (I've gone through this 
several times already, Richelle, so I'm not going into more detail. 
Please read the posts I mentioned above. To everyone who already has 
heard me say this three or so times, sorry).

--------------------------
On Pip's coment:
> 'One or two of the masked wizards in the circle moved 
> uncomfortably, ..'
> 
> Only one or two?

Elkins stated:
> Thus implying that only those "one or two" of the Death Eaters 
> had really been disloyal at all.
> 
> Erm.  Um.  The problem here is that, well, there are just far
> too many indications elsewhere in the scene that the majority of 
> these guys really are profoundly uncomfortable in that graveyard.
> <snip examples of peer preasure and general fear> 
> They surely can't *all* be great actors just doing their bit to help 
> feed Harry misinformation, can they?

No, point accepted, they cannot be *all* acting. However, haven't you 
ever heard someone call you (my father, in my case), and go to see what 
he/she wants while thinking "What have I done *now*?". Guilt is not 
only a particular case nor it's just a sign of guilty consciense. The 
DEs feared being found guilty of something, maybe something they 
couldn't remeber, or maybe just of running away from the Dark Mark in 
the sky, for which maybe Voldemort would be willing to give out a few 
Cruciatus. 

Anyway, we're talking of Lord of Terror Voldemort. The entire scene, 
including background in a graveyard, was destinied to get his DEs back 
in line (as well as other objectives. He's multitasking, as pip said). 
Voldemort need respect, and since he's not lovable, the other only way 
to gain it is through fear. And he makes a good show. I imagine he knew 
he wasn't particularly amazing when he contacted a few of his most 
loyal DEs in his ugly baby form, and he needs to inspire fear into 
their hearts.

> I am willing to entertain the notion that Lucius Malfoy may be in on 
> the Big Plan (if only because imagining his stammering there as 
> evidence that he had forgotten his *lines* made me laugh so hard that 
> my housemate ran into the room asking "What?  WHAT?"), but I'm afraid 
> that I'm just not quite up for a plateful of "all but one or two of 
> the DEs were loyal."  There's just far too much canon opposing that 
> one.  
> 
> But that's okay, right?  Voldemort can have just a couple of 
> loyalists, while the rest of them can still be treacherous disloyal 
> slime, right?  
> 
> -- Elkins

In this case, your guess is as good as mine. Pip's theory needs a few 
loyal DEs (in fact, things would possibly work with just Malfoy), but 
there is no canon in favor or against. Voldemort's particular acusation 
of not looking for him, though, is not to be taken seriously: They were 
all being watched, and they wouldn't want to take spies to Voldemort, 
and he wouldn't want it either.

Hope that helps,

Grey Wolf