The Sorting of Neville Longbottom

[darrin_burnett]

No: HPFGUIDX 40181

Elkins wrote:


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "ssk7882" <skelkins at a...> wrote:
> Apparently, Darrin just can't stand my preferred reading of Neville.
> 
> Heh.  That's okay, Darrin.  I've never claimed that it's for 
> everyone.  It's a very specialized reading, and few people seem to 
> like it very much.  It is, however, perfectly canonically 
supported.  
> Let me show you.
> 

And I write:

Lots of things are supported by canon. If there is anything I've 
learned in my short time here, it's that canon can be bent, folded, 
and spindled to nearly any point of view. :)



> 
> On Neville's Brawl With Crabbe and Goyle
> 
> 
> Darrin wrote:
> 
> > What would have happened if Ron and Neville both would have 
> > attacked Draco? Crabbe and Goyle would have turned them into meat 
> > pizza from behind. 
> 

And Elkins countered: 

> And what would have happened if neither Ron nor Neville had 
attacked 
> Draco?
> 
> Ron is the one who initiates the fist fight in that scene.  Ron is 
the
> one who ratchets the level of the confrontation up from words to 
> blows.
> 
> That Neville is willing to help him out once he does so is evidence 
> of loyalty.  It is evidence of physical bravery -- the kid is very 
> likely going to get hurt, and he must know that.  
> 
> But then, Peter Pettigrew also displays a great deal of physical 
> courage.  As much as he may value his own life, he is willing to 
take 
> tremendous risks with it (his escape at the end of PoA is proof of 
> this), and he is also willing to get hurt.  He's willing to put up 
> with a lot in the way of physical pain.
> 
> I don't think, though, that any of us would go so far as to call 
> Pettigrew courageous.  He's not.  He's a coward.  While he may not 
> possess much in the way of Proper Wizarding Pride, he does 
possesses 
> daring and boldness and physical courage -- all of them Gryffindor 
> traits.  But morally, he is a coward, and I think that we are meant 
> to understand that in the end, moral courage counts for an awful 
lot.
> 
> So are Neville's actions in this scene indicative of true courage?  
> Of *moral* courage?
> 
> Hard to say for sure, without knowing precisely what was going 
through
> his mind at the time.  But I must say that I would find it a lot 
more 
> convincing as evidence of true courage if earlier in that exact 
same 
> chapter it had not been so very strongly implied that Neville 
himself 
> considers such behavior the prerequisite to gaining acceptance from
> his peers.
> 
> PS, Chapter 13.  Neville has already told Hermione that he does not
> want to report Malfoy to Professor McGonagall because he 
doesn't "want
> more trouble."  The scene then runs like this:
> 
> 
> "'You've got to stand up to him, Neville!' said Ron.  'He's used to
> walking all over people, but that's no reason to lie down in front
> of him and make it easier.'
> 
> 'There's no need to tell me I'm not brave enough to be in 
Gryffindor,
> Malfoy's already done that,' Neville choked.
> 
> <Harry then gives Neville his last chocolate frog and then piles on 
> yet more peer pressure>
> 
> "'You're worth twelve of Malfoy,' Harry said.  'The Sorting Hat 
chose
> you for Gryffindor, didn't it?  And where's Malfoy?  In stinking 
> Slytherin.'
> 
> Neville's lips twitched in a weak smile as he unwrapped the Frog.
> 
> 'Thanks, Harry...I think I'll go to bed...'"
> 
> <And then he hands Harry back the card from the frog and walks 
away.>
> 
> 
> That's the canon.  Only a few pages later on in the same chapter is 
> when we are treated to Neville first telling Draco "I'm worth twelve
> of you, Malfoy!" and then, after a moment's hesitation, clambering
> over the seats to help Ron out with the fist fight that he has 
> provoked.
> 
> Why does Neville act in such a way in that particular scene, when 
> elsewhere in canon he is consistently depicted as a character who
> prefers to avoid conflict?
> 
> Well.  It might be in part because he just can't stand to watch Ron 
> get himself pounded to a pulp by Crabbe and Goyle without doing 
> something to try to help him out.  Neville is a nice kid, after all.
> 
> But it also just might have something to do with the fact that only 
a 
> few pages earlier in the novel, the rest of House Gryffindor has 
> (inadvertantly, I'm sure, and with the very best of intentions) 
left 
> him with the impression that his own preferred method of dealing 
with 
> things is unacceptable to them, and that if he wants to earn their 
> approval and be deemed worthy of belonging to House Gryffindor, 
> rather than "stinking Slytherin," he'd better toe the line and 
start 
> acting the way all the rest of them do.
> 
> Neville does try to shut them up, doesn't he?  He all but comes 
right 
> out and says: "You know, guys, the way that you're always nagging 
at 
> me?  When it comes right down to it, it's just exactly the sort of 
> thing that Malfoy does."  
> 
> But they just don't get the hint, do they?  They're totally 
> oblivious.  They just keep at it.  The famous Harry Potter himself 
> joins in the fray, and then drops that nice little "stinking 
> Slytherin" in, just to make it perfectly clear to Neville *exactly* 
> what the social punishment for failing to conform to the House's 
> party line entails.
> 
> Small wonder that he can only muster the very weakest of smiles at 
> Harry's words of "praise."  Small wonder that he excuses himself 
from 
> the conversation rather abruptly, and then just goes off to bed.
> 
> And indeed, Neville learns his lesson.  The *very next time* that 
we 
> see him anywhere near a Slyth vs. Gryff rumble, he follows orders.  
> He parrots Harry's words verbatim.  And then he goes and gets 
himself 
> into a fist fight.
> 
> Good Gryffindor.  Have a cookie.
> 
> I do think that Neville is a trooper.  But what the text is showing 
> us in this particular chapter isn't courage.  It's peer pressure.  
> 
> 

And I write:

I'm quoting everything, as you did me, to ensure that I get all the 
arguments correctly. Thank you for that courtesy and I hope to match 
it.

The biggest difference between Neville's fighting and Pettigrew's 
fighting is incredibly simple.

Pettigrew had to fight to escape. Neville didn't have to do any such 
thing. He could have stood there and let Ron get hammered. He could 
have run for a professor. He could have run for one of the bigger 
Gryffindors. 

There were other options besides fighting, and Neville chose to 
endanger himself rather than take the easy way out. Pettigrew showed 
survival tactics. 

Now, if I understand the argument here, what you are saying is the 
peer pressure essentially left Neville without a choice. Had he run 
for a professor or a bigger Gryffindor, he wouldn't have done it "the 
Gryffindor way."

OK, and you're reading Harry and Ron's advice to Neville -- stand up 
for yourself, don't let yourself be bullied -- as putting peer 
pressure on him.

But I think we have to realize that Neville's preferred way of doing 
things was making him miserable. He obviously doesn't want to be 
Malfoy's plaything. And my read is that he doesn't want to go to 
McGonagall because he fears retribution, not because he didn't think 
it was that big a deal and doesn't want to cause trouble.

So, Harry and Ron, being Neville's friend, and yes, selfishly sick of 
seeing Malfoy get away with yet another prank, encourage Neville to 
stand up for himself.

I refuse to believe that Neville was on the right track without Harry 
and Ron -- or someone, anyone -- saying this. The kid was going 
through the Hogwarts equivalent of getting his lunch money stolen and 
was doing exactly nothing.

As a side note, I find it fascinating that Malfoy's insult is "you're 
not brave enough to be in Gryffindor." Sure, it's probably just 
Malfoy's clumsy attempt at causing strife, but I think it also says 
something about how Malfoy views his own courage and which house he 
landed in.

But I also think you're making a huge jump in Neville's reaction when 
he repeats this insult. "Don't tell me I'm not brave enough...etc."

In this case, you take what he says as this: "You know, guys, the way 
that you're always nagging at 
> me?  When it comes right down to it, it's just exactly the sort of 
> thing that Malfoy does.

First, canon doesn't support, nor to my way of thinking, even imply, 
prior conversations about this, nor anything close to repeated 
nagging.

Second, I see Neville's comment as not a "shut up and leave me alone" 
but indeed a cry for help. It's a classic response to an 
insult. "that person said I'm too fat" and the proper answer is "no, 
you're not" even if the person weighs 400 pounds.

What Harry and Ron did was not give him a robotic platitude, but said 
that the way to get Malfoy to leave him alone was to stand up to him.

Remember, this was in response to Neville saying he didn't want to go 
to McGonagall. "Stand up to him" could mean lots of different things, 
INCLUDING going to McGonagall.

Moving further through your interpretation of the canon, you take 
exception with Harry talking about "stinking Slytherin" and say that 
Harry was basically laying down the law to Neville. 

Wait a second. Harry despises Slytherin. Hell, most people do. You 
can make a case that some Slytherin hate themselves. So, stinking 
Slytherin hardly seems an uncommon thing to say. 

And by reminding Neville that the sorting hat put him in Gryffindor --
 interesting foreshadowing for CoS, when Harry had his own doubts 
about if he was in the right house -- does Harry not encourage 
Neville to believe that deep down, he's got what it takes? 

Neville's "please don't tell me" is screaming that Neville believes 
it himself and to hear it from Harry and Ron would be what puts him 
over the edge, and probably out of Hogwarts.

And no, an ideal Gryffindor does not stand there like a ninny and let 
himself get trampled by Slytherin. 

Neither does a Ravenclaw, nor a Hufflepuff, nor whatever houses they 
have at Durmstrang and Beauxbatons. NO healthy person stands there 
and puts up with it. Letting yourself be bullied is not a healthy way 
to go through life.  

But Neville is somehow being pressured to conform to Gryffindor? No, 
I think he's being offered a choice. Stand up for yourself or you'll 
have to put up with this garbage for the rest of Hogwarts, and 
incidentally, the rest of your life, because there are plenty of 
Malfoys in the world.

You also take a clue from Neville's weak smile. Of course, when the 
conversation started, the LAST thing Neville felt like doing was 
smiling. By the end of the pep-talk, Neville had been weakly smiling.

What you are saying is that Neville heard the advice, weighed the 
advice against his own value system, and gave a weak smile because he 
realized then he would have to do something against what he wanted to 
do -- which I'm assuming is something OTHER than being Malfoy's 
scratching post -- in order to be accepted and was putting on a brave 
front.

Whew... all that from an 11-year-old who's just been humiliated.

Finally, all through this, you take Neville's enthusiastic acceptance 
of Harry and Ron's advice as proof that Harry and Ron pressured him. 

I dispute the pressure to begin with. Neville indeed parroted Harry's 
words and later throws them back at them but I do not believe the 
bridge between "pressure" and "advice" can be supported by that.




> 
> On Neville's Failed Obstruction of the Trio at the End of PS/SS
> 
> 
> Darrin wrote:
> 
> > Wait, I forgot how Neville went from being the victim of 
Hermione's 
> > body-bind to somehow instigating all of this. 
> 

Elkins wrote:

> Really?  You have?  Well, okay then.  Allow me to refresh your 
memory.
> 
> As you will no doubt recall, at this point in the story, all four of
> our protagonists are getting seriously dumped on by the rest of the
> House.  They're being held responsible for having ruined 
Gryffindor's
> chances of gaining the House Cup.  They're being ostracized.  The
> House Cup is a seriously big deal to these students.  Stupid, but 
> there you have it.  Clearly, when it comes to peer approval, there's
> something even more important than being bold and daring and 
> adventuresome and needlessly violent -- and that's earning the 
House  points.
> 
> Neville gets this.  Boy, does he get it.  But it seems like maybe 
the Trio's been a bit slow on the uptake.  So we reach Chapter 16:
> 
> "'What are you doing?' said a voice from the corner of the room.  
> Neville appeared from behind an armchair, clutching Trevor the 
toad, 
> who looked as though he'd been making another bid fro freedom."
> 
> Maybe.  Maybe.  Or maybe Neville's been hiding there waiting to 
catch  them trying to make another late night foray.  Either way, 
he's there now, and he knows that the Trio is planning something else 
that might get the House in trouble.  Funny, isn't it?  These are the 
same people who only a couple of chapters ago were laying into him 
for not properly upholding the values of the House!  And now they're 
going to go and lose the House more points, right?
> 
> Are these guys hypocrites, or what?
> 

And I interrupt to write:

This entire passage I believe I argued against by saying that Neville 
was not being told "be a better Gryffindor or get the hell out" but 
by encouraging Neville to stop being a doormat in life. Again, I find 
it hard to believe that had they been in Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff, the 
same advice wouldn't be given. 

And there is a big difference between upholding Gryffindor values and 
breaking school rules. As Dumbledore correctly points out at the end 
of the book, Harry's bravery, Hermione's logic under fire, Ron's 
skill and Neville's courage ALL more than compensate for the fact 
that they went out at night to do these acts.

But moving along, on page 270, Hermione throws up her own 
objection: "You can't. After what McGonagall and Snape have said. 
You'll be expelled."

"SO WHAT" Harry shouted. "Don't you understand? If Snape gets hold of 
the Stone, Voldermort's coming back. Haven't you heard what it was 
like when he was trying to take over? There won't be any Hogwarts to 
get expelled from! He'll flatten it, or turn it into a school for the 
Dark Arts! Losing points doesn't matter anymore, can't you see? D'you 
think he'll leave you and your families alone if Gryffindor wins the 
house cup?"

Hard to argue with that. Unfortunately, among the students, only the 
Trio know about the Stone and the danger. Neville, like every other 
Gryffindor, believes the House Cup is the most important thing in 
their lives.

Finding out that something is more important is not being 
hypocritical. It's contradictory, but you only become a hypocrite if 
you refer back to the way you were when it suits your needs.

If you'll notice in the rest of the books, Harry, Ron and Hermione 
never really get as worried about the House Cup ever again. Harry and 
Ron worm their way out of losing points for the flying car in CoS, 
but that is it.

Since they are the three most important student characters, it has 
followed that the books pay little attention to it. What became a 
several-page drama in SS/PS is a one- or two-sentence "Gryffindor won 
again" in CoS and PoA and forgotten due to Cedric's death in GoF.

> So Neville tries to point this out to them.  He appeals to their 
> sense of House loyalty.  They don't get the message.  At *all.*  
They 
> try to lie to him about what they're up to.  They tell him that he 
> just doesn't understand. Actually, he *does* understand.  They're 
the  ones who are being obtuse here. And they're being hypocritical, 
as > wel, because in the past, they have been the ones always urging 
> *him* to abide by the social conventions of the House. They've been 
> nagging him and pressuring about it all year long.  And now 
*they're* telling *him* that he doesn't understand things?
> 

And I write:

No, they weren't nagging him. No, they weren't being hypocritcal. And 
Neville DIDN'T understand why they were being contradictory. No one 
else but the Trio did. It's horribly elitist of them, but that is 
kind of like accusing James Bond of being elitist because he didn't 
stop to explain to Q how he'd figured out what the bad guy was up to.

> They need a more pointed message.  Neville has just the thing.
> 
> 
> "But Neville was clearly steeling himself to do something desperate.
> 
> "'I won't let you do it,' he said, hurrying to stand in front of 
the 
> portrait hole.  'I'll--I'll fight you.'"
> 
> 
> Still no go.  Ron tells him to stand aside from the door.  He 
> refuses.  Not only does he refuse, not only does he object to being 
> called an idiot, not only does he inform them that he really 
doesn't 
> think very much of their behavior, he also reminds them that he is 
> acting *on their very own instructions!*
> 
> "'And you were the one who told me to stand up to people!'"
> 
> Interesting phrasing, isn't it?  Not "encouraged me to stand up to 
> people." "*Told* me to stand up to people."  In other 
words, "pushed 
> me around just like you think it's so horrible when Malfoy does 
it."  
> Neville is giving them a serious critique of their behavior here.  
> He's calling them bullies and hypocrites, and they're just too 
dense 
> to get it.  In fact, Ron just goes on to prove his very point by 
(a) 
> explaining that he didn't mean that Neville should stand up to 
> *them,* and (b) telling Neville that he doesn't know what he's 
doing.
> 

and I write:

Again, Neville's enthusiastic acceptance of advice doesn't mean Harry 
and Ron ripped his skull open and forced it down into his brain. And 
the fact that Neville took to the advice like a calf takes to 
mother's milk only strengthens my argument that the advice is exactly 
what Neville needed. 

And please, let us not give Harry and Ron, two 11-year-olds, so much 
credit to make the argument that they are being coldly manipulative 
of Neville, planting seeds of courage in his head so he will become 
their willing soldier. Obviously, they are befuddled by what they 
have created.

And again, as evidenced by the conversation Harry and Hermione had, 
they clearly have changed their views on whether or not points really 
matter all that much.

Neville hasn't had this conversion. Of course points are going to be 
the most important thing to him. He believes he is doing what is best 
for Gryffindor. The Trio believes they are doing what is best for 
Gryffindor.

As we find out, the Trio is right -- or do you want to contemplate 
the climax of PS/SS had Harry said: "Jolly good, you're right 
Neville. We'll go off to bed now."

However, Dumbledore takes pains to reward Neville for doing what HE 
thought was right. Classic win-win.

> So Neville takes it one step further.

> "'Go on then, try and hit me!' said Neville, raising his 
fists.  'I'm 
> ready!'"
> 
> In other words, "you guys still just don't *get* it, do you?  What 
am 
> I going to have to do to get through to you people?  Force you to 
hit  me, so that you'll feel guilty about it later and maybe actually 
> start to *think* for once in your lives?  Well...okay, then.  Go 
> ahead.  Knock me senseless."
> 
> And so they do.
> 
> Yes.  Of course Neville instigates it!  He is given the opportunity 
> to accept their initial lies about what they are up to, but he 
> doesn't take it.  He is given two chances to stand aside, and he 
> doesn't take those, either.  Indeed, he just keeps ratcheting up 
the 
> level of the confrontation.  "I'll fight you."  "You'll have to hit 
> me."  He's *daring* them to attack him.  And eventually, they do.
> 

And I say:

Of course, Neville COULD hardly have been dreaming that they would 
actually "hit" him, let alone use a spell on him. It reads to me like 
a bluff that the boy holds onto too darn long.  

And again, Harry and Hermione and Ron HAVE thought this through and 
have made a calculated risk. Their fault is in not taking the four 
hours or so it would have taken to explain to Neville what was really 
going on, convincing him to keep his mouth shut and telling him he 
couldn't come help.

Neville is standing up for what he believes is right. That is what he 
is supposed to do. Obviously, the smart thing to do would have been 
to run for Percy the Prefect, but of course we can't have that, 
because then Harry doesn't get to look into the mirror and get the 
stone. 

That's why we can't have it, for plot purposes, not because Neville 
is trying to prove a point. Sorry to bring the dose of outer-thinking 
here, but that's what it is.


> Darrin:
> 
> > It was Neville who in part cost Gryffindor 150 points and he was 
> > trying to make up for it in his own way.

Elkins writes:

> 
> I quite agree.  And his "way" certainly does make a point, doesn't 
> it?  In fact, it does so *exactly* as his "way" of succumbing to 
peer 
> pressure in Chapter 13 did.
> 

and I write:

Again, his point is dictated by JKR's desire to put a button on 
Neville without tangling the Trio up too badly on the way to the 
Stone.



Darrin wrote:

> > What you're saying is that Neville, consciously or unconsciously -
- 
> > and your "know the score" comment would indicate CONSCIOUS 
> > behavior -- has put himself in the way of two larger boys' fists 
> > and submitted to a body-bind from Hermione because it is the easy 
> > way out?
> 

Elkins writes: 

> It's not the easy way out.  It's not a way out at all.  In both 
> cases, it is a way of surrendering to social pressures in a manner 
> that seems specifically designed to bring home a point about the 
> values reflected by that social pressure.
> 
> It's a brave way to cave, to be sure.  But it's still caving.
> 
> 

Darrin writes:

Neville just can't win can he? He goes on the way he is going, and he 
caves into Malfoy every day for the rest of his Hogwarts career, 
which probably doesn't last past mid-second year before he has a 
nervous breakdown.

But he takes Harry and Ron's advice, and he is caving into social 
pressures dictating what kind of person he is supposed to be.

Again... Neville's way wasn't working. He was a doormat, something 
Malfoy viewed the way you view a piece of toilet paper. Where you see 
cruel social pressure, I see encouraging a weaker kid to stand up for 
himself.


> > I don't buy it. 
> 

Elkins writes: 

> Hey, I'm not making any money off of this.  But if you're going to 
> want to convince me that Neville's behavior is truly courageous, 
> rather than simply passive-aggressive, then you're going to have to 
> show me some evidence that Neville *himself* believes that there is 
> genuine value in duelling in corridors, brawling at Quidditch 
> matches, and investing an enormous degree of emotional energy into 
> the acquisition of a meaningless trophy.
> 

I write:

This is a shadow argument. You state earlier that there is no way to 
conclusively know what is in his head. I say that canon can be taken 
a number of ways.

All we can do is express our opinions. No evidence exists that 
Neville believes what you demand to know he believes any more than 
evidence exists that Neville is passive-aggressive. 

My opinion is that Neville took the advice. It wasn't pumped in 
intravenously. 

As far as the acquisition of a meaningless trophy, really now, 
EVERYONE in school was going for the trophy, not just Gryffindors. 
Brawling and dueling, fine, there is room for interpretation, but you 
are demanding to see evidence that Neville's pursuit of a trophy, 
WHEN EVERYONE ELSE, INCLUDING TEACHERS, IS GOING FOR THE TROPHY, is 
because of a flaw in his character?

It doesn't exist. But you know that already. I just hope you also 
know that it's non-existence does nothing to strengthen what you say.

> I don't see a shred of evidence of that anywhere in the text.  
Until 
> I see it there, then my reading remains supported whether or not 
you 
> happen to be in the market for it.
> 

Again, the canon can support numerous things. As we've shown, the 
same words provoke different reactions.

And without knowing what is in Neville's head, which we'll never 
know, because the character just isn't that damn important, there is 
no evidence for either side. Just opinion with interpretations of the 
canon used to support it.

> > Standing up to Crabbe and Goyle allowed Ron to get some shots in 
> > and score a victory -- petty and juvenile, but a victory -- 
against 
> > Slytherin. 
> 
> If that's the sort of victory that Neville values so much, then why 
> does he reject Hermione's suggestion that he complain to McGonagall 
> about Malfoy's rule-breaking?  Why does he only start defending 
> himself against such attacks once his peers make it clear to him 
that 
> he is "supposed to" as a member of House Gryffindor?  Why does he 
> absent himself from the scene so quickly when it becomes clear that 
> the rest of the House is simply not going to respect his preferred 
> way of dealing with the situation?  Why does he later paraphrase 
> this advice as something that Ron "told" him to do, rather than as 
> something that he was "encouraged" or "helped" to do?  Why does he 
> give the impression of being *angry* about the fact that the 
> Trio "told" him to do these things, rather than grateful to them 
for 
> their bolstering?

I write:

Again, he is "supposed to" as a member of the healthy people in this 
human race, not necessarily Gryffindor. Do you honestly believe that 
a Ravenclaw, presented the exact same situation, would tell Neville 
to hide under his bed, jumping in fear whenever Malfoy came along? Or 
what about a Hufflepuff?

And what if he went to a professor? Malfoy would get a detention, 
maybe lose some points, and then come back twice as worse. And even 
the professor would know that until Neville stopped it on his own, it 
would continue.

And again, you are making the huge, and in my opinion, erroneous leap 
that Neville was content, in a resigned to life sort of way, doing 
what he was doing. 

"Not making trouble" indicates a fear of retaliation, not a mature 
desire to be above the fray. Please, he is 11-years-old, and you're 
giving him credit for being a diplomatic negotiator.


> 
> And why is he *never again,* not once in the canon to date, ever 
seen 
> doing these sorts of things?
> 
> It does make you wonder.  Doesn't it?
> 
> 

I write:

Well, amazingly enough, he seems to be largely left alone by the 
Slytherin gang -- excluding Snape, of course -- for the rest of the 
canon, doesn't he? Perhaps throwing those punches was the right thing 
to do?

 
> On The Point Award
> 
> 
> Darrin wrote:
> 
> > Standing up to the Trio ended up giving Gryffindor the House Cup 
> > and I'd bet that's EXACTLY why Dumbledore gave it to him, to 
> > encourage the spark of courage. 
> 

Elkins wrote: 
> I agree that that's EXACTLY why Dumbledore gave it to him.  It's 
also 
> EXACTLY what Harry and Ron were trying to do for him in the 
> Gryffindor common room back in Chapter 13.  But how people intend 
> things and how others wind up interpreting them isn't always 
> precisely the same thing, now, is it?
> 

I write: 
RIGHT! My central argument, turned a bit. Harry and Ron GAVE advice 
and Neville leaped on it with all he could. But I find all through 
your argument, Harry and Ron being criticized for pressuring Neville. 

You seem to believe that Harry and Ron should have known how Neville 
would react and tempered their advice accordingly so as not to put 
undue pressure on the lad. And Neville, who chooses to throw punches 
and challenge the Trio rather than stand up in different ways, has 
taken the advice to heart in his own way.


Elkins writes: 
> 
>Quoting me:> He's shocked that he is being rewarded here. We're 
talking about a  kid that doesn't get too many rewards for his 
behavior. He'd never 
> > won a point for Gryffindor, remember?

 
> I remember.  He is indeed shocked.  Of course he's shocked.  He is, 
> in fact, "white with shock."  But is he *pleased?*
> 
> There's no evidence that Neville is at all pleased about this state 
> of affairs.  None.
> 

I write: 

And no evidence he isn't. Remember, he disappeared under the pile of 
people hugging him. And nothing you have said indicates to me that 
Neville, the hero of his house and indeed the entire non-Slytherin 
population of the school, would not be pleased with that kind of 
attention.  You aren't saying that, are you?


Me: 
> > Oh, and I don't see where Harry thinks anything about Neville's 
> > reaction. I've got page 306 right in front of me and there is 
> > nothing about Harry's interpretation of Neville being white with 
> > shock. Are you talking about another of the four books? 

Elkins: 

> 
> No, you're right.  I was reading implication there.  Harry notes 
that 
> Neville is white with shock, and then immediately moves on to the 
> thought that he had never before won a single point for 
Gryffindor.  
> I was indeed assuming that Harry's interpretation of Neville's 
> behavior was "shocked and pleased," but you're perfectly correct.  
It 
> actually says that nowhere in the text.
> 

Me: 

I hesitate to bring this point up because I feel I have to be 
misreading what you said. What you say indicates that Harry is the 
narrator.

"Harry notes that Neville is white with shock, and then immediately 
moves onto the thought that he never before won a single point for 
Gryffindor"

It is a third-person omniscient narrator telling us all this. Harry 
is not the narrator. I have no doubt that someone who has read the 
canon as closely as you would make this mistake, so I can only assume 
your writing is unclear and perhaps missing a word.


> 
> > Well, obviously we have two different world views here. I fail to 
> > see exactly why it turned your stomach. 
> 
> It turned my stomach because it seemed to me that Dumbledore was 
> rewarding Neville for behaving in a manner that (a) I think is far 
> more harmful than beneficial, and (b) Neville himself has, to my 
> mind, shown no particular signs of valuing himself, while in fact 
> showing quite a few signs of *not* valuing himself.  
> 

Again, we're talking about standing up and not being a chew toy. In 
the long run, that will be more beneficial than harmful.


> It also turned my stomach because the specific *act* of "bravery" 
> and "standing up to ones friends" for which Neville was being 
lauded 
> there was to my mind (a) far less brave than purely passive-
> aggressive, and (b) itself a manifestation of Neville's unfortunate 
> tendency to give way to the will of others.
> 
> I want Neville to get braver, too, you see.  I like Courageous!
> Neville.  I think he's got guts, and I'd like to see him get 
> gutsier.  But I just can't read his behavior in PS/SS as in the 
least 
> bit brave.  I know that I'm probably "supposed to."  I know that 
> other people do.  But I don't.  I read it as weak-willed.
> 

We do have some classic overcompensation on the part of Neville. My 
read is that he was at the end of his rope when it came to Malfoy, or 
else he wouldn't have done something so drastic -- and taken the 
Trios' advice so enthusiastically. It was like he was Super-Neville 
there, punching Crabbe and Goyle, racing through the halls trying to 
find and warn Harry, and standing up to three more superior wizards.

I think the general toning down of Neville in the other three books 
speaks to a leveling-out as far as that goes. 


> There is hope, however.  Nowhere again in canon do we ever see 
> Neville engaging in quite the form of passive-aggressive compliance 
> to social convention that he displays in PS/SS.  Nor is he ever 
again 
> shown getting involved in pointless fist-fights, nor hopping onto 
the
> "We Must Win That Cup At Any Cost And It's Therefore Okay To 
Socially 
> Punish Even Our Own Housemates If They Weaken Our Chances" 
bandwagon.
> 
> So you see?  In spite of Dumbledore's best efforts, Neville really 
> *is* getting braver.  ;-)
> 

Nope, I stick by my leveling out theory. I think Malfoy opening 
cursing Neville without regard for consequences was as low as Neville 
felt he could go. Had he not stood up the next time he saw Malfoy, 
he'd have been lost forever, always a meek person who was bullied.

BUT... Neville also shouldn't be getting in stupid fistfights, and he 
doesn't the rest of the way. His courage, as we both agree -- I knew 
we'd find something -- has manifested itself in better, and more 
literarily interesting ways -- asking Hermione out, standing up to 
say 'yes, I lost the passwords', etc.

And as I said, no one really cares about the House Cup any longer. I 
half expect D-Dore to cancel it for the next three years anyway.

> 
> > Perhaps I am a little too romantic and I enjoyed seeing the 
picked-
> > on kid get a little victory in the end. 
> 
> Well, I'm awfully romantic that way too, obviously.  If I weren't, 
> then I would hardly feel so annoyed with the idea of Neville 
getting 
> rewarded for caving to social pressures, would I?  I'd just be able 
> to read it as black humour, and then move on.
> 
> 
> > Nope, I don't believe that. In book 7, Neville gets a heroic 
scene. 
> > Bank on it. Be there or be square or be depressed - if you must.
> 
> It's not the idea of Neville getting a heroic scene in Book 7 that 
> depresses me.  I'd like nothing better.
> 
> What depresses me is the idea of Neville getting yet another 
utterly 
> UNheroic scene that the author wants me to read as heroic, even 
> though it just plain isn't.  That's the thought that depresses me.
> 

Ah, but it is heroic. :) You see caving in. I see a young man taking 
a brave step out of his shell and being rewarded for it. The cheers 
of the Gryffindors will fade, but the positive reinforcement Neville 
will feel from his pleasure -- yes, I think he was smiling under that 
pile; I'm not sure what you think he was doing -- will stay with him 
the rest of his life.




> Alas, I suspect that it's precisely what I'm going to get.  
> 
> Although, you never know.  JKR can sometimes pleasantly surprise 
> you.  She gave me quite a number of thoroughly unexpected and very 
> pleasant surprises in Book Four.  So I hold out some hopes.  
> 
> Slim ones.  But hopes.
> 


Ah, let your hopes be fatter. I do not think you'll be disappointed.

This was fun. I hope we can do it again sometime. :)

Darrin 
-- OK, now it's time for a drink ... I wonder what liquor mixes well 
with pumpkin juice?