The Sorting of Neville Longbottom

[ssk7882]

No: HPFGUIDX 40179

Apparently, Darrin just can't stand my preferred reading of Neville.

Heh.  That's okay, Darrin.  I've never claimed that it's for 
everyone.  It's a very specialized reading, and few people seem to 
like it very much.  It is, however, perfectly canonically supported.  
Let me show you.

-----

On Neville's Brawl With Crabbe and Goyle


Darrin wrote:

> What would have happened if Ron and Neville both would have 
> attacked Draco? Crabbe and Goyle would have turned them into meat 
> pizza from behind. 

And what would have happened if neither Ron nor Neville had attacked 
Draco?

Ron is the one who initiates the fist fight in that scene.  Ron is the
one who ratchets the level of the confrontation up from words to 
blows.

That Neville is willing to help him out once he does so is evidence 
of loyalty.  It is evidence of physical bravery -- the kid is very 
likely going to get hurt, and he must know that.  

But then, Peter Pettigrew also displays a great deal of physical 
courage.  As much as he may value his own life, he is willing to take 
tremendous risks with it (his escape at the end of PoA is proof of 
this), and he is also willing to get hurt.  He's willing to put up 
with a lot in the way of physical pain.

I don't think, though, that any of us would go so far as to call 
Pettigrew courageous.  He's not.  He's a coward.  While he may not 
possess much in the way of Proper Wizarding Pride, he does possesses 
daring and boldness and physical courage -- all of them Gryffindor 
traits.  But morally, he is a coward, and I think that we are meant 
to understand that in the end, moral courage counts for an awful lot.

So are Neville's actions in this scene indicative of true courage?  
Of *moral* courage?

Hard to say for sure, without knowing precisely what was going through
his mind at the time.  But I must say that I would find it a lot more 
convincing as evidence of true courage if earlier in that exact same 
chapter it had not been so very strongly implied that Neville himself 
considers such behavior the prerequisite to gaining acceptance from
his peers.

PS, Chapter 13.  Neville has already told Hermione that he does not
want to report Malfoy to Professor McGonagall because he doesn't "want
more trouble."  The scene then runs like this:


"'You've got to stand up to him, Neville!' said Ron.  'He's used to
walking all over people, but that's no reason to lie down in front
of him and make it easier.'

'There's no need to tell me I'm not brave enough to be in Gryffindor,
Malfoy's already done that,' Neville choked.

<Harry then gives Neville his last chocolate frog and then piles on 
yet more peer pressure>

"'You're worth twelve of Malfoy,' Harry said.  'The Sorting Hat chose
you for Gryffindor, didn't it?  And where's Malfoy?  In stinking 
Slytherin.'

Neville's lips twitched in a weak smile as he unwrapped the Frog.

'Thanks, Harry...I think I'll go to bed...'"

<And then he hands Harry back the card from the frog and walks away.>


That's the canon.  Only a few pages later on in the same chapter is 
when we are treated to Neville first telling Draco "I'm worth twelve
of you, Malfoy!" and then, after a moment's hesitation, clambering
over the seats to help Ron out with the fist fight that he has 
provoked.

Why does Neville act in such a way in that particular scene, when 
elsewhere in canon he is consistently depicted as a character who
prefers to avoid conflict?

Well.  It might be in part because he just can't stand to watch Ron 
get himself pounded to a pulp by Crabbe and Goyle without doing 
something to try to help him out.  Neville is a nice kid, after all.

But it also just might have something to do with the fact that only a 
few pages earlier in the novel, the rest of House Gryffindor has 
(inadvertantly, I'm sure, and with the very best of intentions) left 
him with the impression that his own preferred method of dealing with 
things is unacceptable to them, and that if he wants to earn their 
approval and be deemed worthy of belonging to House Gryffindor, 
rather than "stinking Slytherin," he'd better toe the line and start 
acting the way all the rest of them do.

Neville does try to shut them up, doesn't he?  He all but comes right 
out and says: "You know, guys, the way that you're always nagging at 
me?  When it comes right down to it, it's just exactly the sort of 
thing that Malfoy does."  

But they just don't get the hint, do they?  They're totally 
oblivious.  They just keep at it.  The famous Harry Potter himself 
joins in the fray, and then drops that nice little "stinking 
Slytherin" in, just to make it perfectly clear to Neville *exactly* 
what the social punishment for failing to conform to the House's 
party line entails.

Small wonder that he can only muster the very weakest of smiles at 
Harry's words of "praise."  Small wonder that he excuses himself from 
the conversation rather abruptly, and then just goes off to bed.

And indeed, Neville learns his lesson.  The *very next time* that we 
see him anywhere near a Slyth vs. Gryff rumble, he follows orders.  
He parrots Harry's words verbatim.  And then he goes and gets himself 
into a fist fight.

Good Gryffindor.  Have a cookie.

I do think that Neville is a trooper.  But what the text is showing 
us in this particular chapter isn't courage.  It's peer pressure.  


-----

On Neville's Failed Obstruction of the Trio at the End of PS/SS


Darrin wrote:

> Wait, I forgot how Neville went from being the victim of Hermione's 
> body-bind to somehow instigating all of this. 

Really?  You have?  Well, okay then.  Allow me to refresh your memory.

As you will no doubt recall, at this point in the story, all four of
our protagonists are getting seriously dumped on by the rest of the
House.  They're being held responsible for having ruined Gryffindor's
chances of gaining the House Cup.  They're being ostracized.  The
House Cup is a seriously big deal to these students.  Stupid, but 
there you have it.  Clearly, when it comes to peer approval, there's
something even more important than being bold and daring and 
adventuresome and needlessly violent -- and that's earning the House 
points.

Neville gets this.  Boy, does he get it.  But it seems like maybe the
Trio's been a bit slow on the uptake.  So we reach Chapter 16:

"'What are you doing?' said a voice from the corner of the room.  
Neville appeared from behind an armchair, clutching Trevor the toad, 
who looked as though he'd been making another bid fro freedom."

Maybe.  Maybe.  Or maybe Neville's been hiding there waiting to catch 
them trying to make another late night foray.  Either way, he's there 
now, and he knows that the Trio is planning something else that might 
get the House in trouble.  Funny, isn't it?  These are the same 
people who only a couple of chapters ago were laying into him for not 
properly upholding the values of the House!  And now they're going to 
go and lose the House more points, right?

Are these guys hypocrites, or what?

So Neville tries to point this out to them.  He appeals to their 
sense of House loyalty.  They don't get the message.  At *all.*  They 
try to lie to him about what they're up to.  They tell him that he 
just doesn't understand. Actually, he *does* understand.  They're the 
ones who are being obtuse here. And they're being hypocritical, as 
well, because in the past, they have been the ones always urging 
*him* to abide by the social conventions of the House. They've been 
nagging him and pressuring about it all year long.  And now *they're* 
telling *him* that he doesn't understand things?

They need a more pointed message.  Neville has just the thing.


"But Neville was clearly steeling himself to do something desperate.

"'I won't let you do it,' he said, hurrying to stand in front of the 
portrait hole.  'I'll--I'll fight you.'"


Still no go.  Ron tells him to stand aside from the door.  He 
refuses.  Not only does he refuse, not only does he object to being 
called an idiot, not only does he inform them that he really doesn't 
think very much of their behavior, he also reminds them that he is 
acting *on their very own instructions!*

"'And you were the one who told me to stand up to people!'"

Interesting phrasing, isn't it?  Not "encouraged me to stand up to 
people." "*Told* me to stand up to people."  In other words, "pushed 
me around just like you think it's so horrible when Malfoy does it."  
Neville is giving them a serious critique of their behavior here.  
He's calling them bullies and hypocrites, and they're just too dense 
to get it.  In fact, Ron just goes on to prove his very point by (a) 
explaining that he didn't mean that Neville should stand up to 
*them,* and (b) telling Neville that he doesn't know what he's doing.

So Neville takes it one step further.

"'Go on then, try and hit me!' said Neville, raising his fists.  'I'm 
ready!'"

In other words, "you guys still just don't *get* it, do you?  What am 
I going to have to do to get through to you people?  Force you to hit 
me, so that you'll feel guilty about it later and maybe actually 
start to *think* for once in your lives?  Well...okay, then.  Go 
ahead.  Knock me senseless."

And so they do.

Yes.  Of course Neville instigates it!  He is given the opportunity 
to accept their initial lies about what they are up to, but he 
doesn't take it.  He is given two chances to stand aside, and he 
doesn't take those, either.  Indeed, he just keeps ratcheting up the 
level of the confrontation.  "I'll fight you."  "You'll have to hit 
me."  He's *daring* them to attack him.  And eventually, they do.


Darrin:

> It was Neville who in part cost Gryffindor 150 points and he was 
> trying to make up for it in his own way.

I quite agree.  And his "way" certainly does make a point, doesn't 
it?  In fact, it does so *exactly* as his "way" of succumbing to peer 
pressure in Chapter 13 did.

> What you're saying is that Neville, consciously or unconsciously -- 
> and your "know the score" comment would indicate CONSCIOUS 
> behavior -- has put himself in the way of two larger boys' fists 
> and submitted to a body-bind from Hermione because it is the easy 
> way out?

It's not the easy way out.  It's not a way out at all.  In both 
cases, it is a way of surrendering to social pressures in a manner 
that seems specifically designed to bring home a point about the 
values reflected by that social pressure.

It's a brave way to cave, to be sure.  But it's still caving.


> I don't buy it. 

Hey, I'm not making any money off of this.  But if you're going to 
want to convince me that Neville's behavior is truly courageous, 
rather than simply passive-aggressive, then you're going to have to 
show me some evidence that Neville *himself* believes that there is 
genuine value in duelling in corridors, brawling at Quidditch 
matches, and investing an enormous degree of emotional energy into 
the acquisition of a meaningless trophy.

I don't see a shred of evidence of that anywhere in the text.  Until 
I see it there, then my reading remains supported whether or not you 
happen to be in the market for it.


> Standing up to Crabbe and Goyle allowed Ron to get some shots in 
> and score a victory -- petty and juvenile, but a victory -- against 
> Slytherin. 

If that's the sort of victory that Neville values so much, then why 
does he reject Hermione's suggestion that he complain to McGonagall 
about Malfoy's rule-breaking?  Why does he only start defending 
himself against such attacks once his peers make it clear to him that 
he is "supposed to" as a member of House Gryffindor?  Why does he 
absent himself from the scene so quickly when it becomes clear that 
the rest of the House is simply not going to respect his preferred 
way of dealing with the situation?  Why does he later paraphrase 
this advice as something that Ron "told" him to do, rather than as 
something that he was "encouraged" or "helped" to do?  Why does he 
give the impression of being *angry* about the fact that the 
Trio "told" him to do these things, rather than grateful to them for 
their bolstering?

And why is he *never again,* not once in the canon to date, ever seen 
doing these sorts of things?

It does make you wonder.  Doesn't it?


-----

On The Point Award


Darrin wrote:

> Standing up to the Trio ended up giving Gryffindor the House Cup 
> and I'd bet that's EXACTLY why Dumbledore gave it to him, to 
> encourage the spark of courage. 

I agree that that's EXACTLY why Dumbledore gave it to him.  It's also 
EXACTLY what Harry and Ron were trying to do for him in the 
Gryffindor common room back in Chapter 13.  But how people intend 
things and how others wind up interpreting them isn't always 
precisely the same thing, now, is it?


> He's shocked that he is being rewarded here. We're talking about a 
> kid that doesn't get too many rewards for his behavior. He'd never 
> won a point for Gryffindor, remember?

I remember.  He is indeed shocked.  Of course he's shocked.  He is, 
in fact, "white with shock."  But is he *pleased?*

There's no evidence that Neville is at all pleased about this state 
of affairs.  None.

> Oh, and I don't see where Harry thinks anything about Neville's 
> reaction. I've got page 306 right in front of me and there is 
> nothing about Harry's interpretation of Neville being white with 
> shock. Are you talking about another of the four books? 

No, you're right.  I was reading implication there.  Harry notes that 
Neville is white with shock, and then immediately moves on to the 
thought that he had never before won a single point for Gryffindor.  
I was indeed assuming that Harry's interpretation of Neville's 
behavior was "shocked and pleased," but you're perfectly correct.  It 
actually says that nowhere in the text.


> Well, obviously we have two different world views here. I fail to 
> see exactly why it turned your stomach. 

It turned my stomach because it seemed to me that Dumbledore was 
rewarding Neville for behaving in a manner that (a) I think is far 
more harmful than beneficial, and (b) Neville himself has, to my 
mind, shown no particular signs of valuing himself, while in fact 
showing quite a few signs of *not* valuing himself.  

It also turned my stomach because the specific *act* of "bravery" 
and "standing up to ones friends" for which Neville was being lauded 
there was to my mind (a) far less brave than purely passive-
aggressive, and (b) itself a manifestation of Neville's unfortunate 
tendency to give way to the will of others.

I want Neville to get braver, too, you see.  I like Courageous!
Neville.  I think he's got guts, and I'd like to see him get 
gutsier.  But I just can't read his behavior in PS/SS as in the least 
bit brave.  I know that I'm probably "supposed to."  I know that 
other people do.  But I don't.  I read it as weak-willed.

There is hope, however.  Nowhere again in canon do we ever see 
Neville engaging in quite the form of passive-aggressive compliance 
to social convention that he displays in PS/SS.  Nor is he ever again 
shown getting involved in pointless fist-fights, nor hopping onto the
"We Must Win That Cup At Any Cost And It's Therefore Okay To Socially 
Punish Even Our Own Housemates If They Weaken Our Chances" bandwagon.

So you see?  In spite of Dumbledore's best efforts, Neville really 
*is* getting braver.  ;-)


> Perhaps I am a little too romantic and I enjoyed seeing the picked-
> on kid get a little victory in the end. 

Well, I'm awfully romantic that way too, obviously.  If I weren't, 
then I would hardly feel so annoyed with the idea of Neville getting 
rewarded for caving to social pressures, would I?  I'd just be able 
to read it as black humour, and then move on.


> Nope, I don't believe that. In book 7, Neville gets a heroic scene. 
> Bank on it. Be there or be square or be depressed - if you must.

It's not the idea of Neville getting a heroic scene in Book 7 that 
depresses me.  I'd like nothing better.

What depresses me is the idea of Neville getting yet another utterly 
UNheroic scene that the author wants me to read as heroic, even 
though it just plain isn't.  That's the thought that depresses me.

Alas, I suspect that it's precisely what I'm going to get.  

Although, you never know.  JKR can sometimes pleasantly surprise 
you.  She gave me quite a number of thoroughly unexpected and very 
pleasant surprises in Book Four.  So I hold out some hopes.  

Slim ones.  But hopes.


-- Elkins