[HPforGrownups] Re: Thanking Snape? (WAS Where was Snape?)

[Edblanning at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 36593

Cindy:
> > Snape tries to save the kids, they knock him out, and not only do 
> >they
> > never appreciate what he did, they never apologize for their 
> >attack. Little
> > self-centered brats.
> 
> I have a feeling I'm going to have my head handed to me here for 
> taking on a certified Snape-ologist, but here goes.  Harry should 
> thank Snape for saving him in the Shrieking Shack or owes Snape an 
> apology for knocking Snape out?  

He didn't need saving, but ideally the trio *should* apologise for knocking 
him out IMHO. It's one of the things that I'm constantly battling to get my 
kids to understand. 'But I didn't *mean* to'.....No, but civilised people 
apologise for injury caused by accident. If they don't, it implies that they 
don't care what effect their actions have on others and morally, it might 
just as well have been intentional. No matter that Snape wouldn't apologise 
to them in similar circumstances; one person's bad manners don't justify 
another's, in my book.

> Let's check the Apology Meter and see who owes whom an apology or a 
> thank you.  Snape burst into the Shrieking Shack, having appropriated 
> Harry's invisibility cloak to eavesdrop.  Then Snape ties up Lupin, 
> threatens to kill Black, threatens to let the dementors kiss Snape 
> and Lupin, and then threatens Harry.  

An apology meter? That's what I mean. I don't think you can weigh the wrongs 
done by each side and imply that only one side is therefore owed an apology.

> After all of this, Harry disarms Snape.  That's it.  Harry didn't 
> perform a levitating charm and drop Snape on his greasy head.  Harry 
> did not intentionally knock Snape out; that bit was unintentional 
> (albeit convenient).  Indeed, it was the Trio who suggested that 
> Snape not be left to rot in the Shrieking Shack.  

Agreed


> Nope, I'm not getting a reading on the Apology Meter.  Harry does not owe 
> Snape an 
> apology or even a thank you.  Everything that happened to Snape in 
> 

Eloise
It *was* his fault, yes, but I stand by what I said above. A civilised 
response (some hope!) would be for Snape to acknowledge that. and.. erm.. 
apologise to Sirius...and Lupin. But that, as Harry thinks, is asking for a 
near miracle (which is not an excuse). I really hope Snape and Sirius do make 
up some time - not completely, you understand - a sort of friendship with 
edge.

> In fact, the Apology Meter needle has swung around and is pointing 
> directly at Snape.  Snape's foolish conduct caused Black to be within 
> moments of having his soul sucked out and contributed to Pettigrew's 
> escape.  Bottom line:  Snape's beliefs about what was going on may 
> have been deeply held, but they were still deeply wrong.

Eloise
Yes, he needs to take on board what he's done and apologise too. I don't 
think his motivation was *bad*, just severely misguided. ( *But* we apologise 
for mistakes)

> And I'm still not buying the idea that Snape was motivated to rescue 
> the Trio.  What's the first thing Snape would say upon entering the 
> Shrieking Shack if he were genuinely interested in the well-being of 
> the Trio?  "Are you all right?" Snape would ask.  Yet he never asks 
> this question, although Ron is lying on the floor with a broken leg.  
> No, Snape is too busy crowing:  "Two more for Azkaban 
> tonight."  "Very useful, Potter, I thank you."  "Vengeance is very 
> sweet."  Snape needs to review the Evil Overlord Handbook, if you ask 
> me.

Eloise
But he did say 'thank you' ! :-)
Well, he knew what the situation was, because he'd been listening, hadn't he?
And when it came down to it, he conjured them stretchers and got them back to 
the castle. No, his primary motive wasn't to rescue the trio: he didn't know 
they were there - at least until he found the invisibility cloak. So 'are you 
OK?' wasn't the first thing on his mind. Come on, can you *ever* imagine 
Snape asking that? Well, I can, if I think about it, but not in the 
circumstances. You know what it's like when you find a child in danger 
because they've done something stupid. As a mother, your first reaction (in 
my experience) is either to burst into tears with relief (not a very 
Snape-like reaction) or tell them off soundly for being stupid and worrying 
you and all that. On the other hand, securing the situation was a priority, 
because he 'knew' what was going on. I'm sure he *thought* he was rescuing 
them. 

> The bottom line is that Snape left his office with one important 
> piece of information -- that Lupin was headed toward the Shrieking 
> Shack.  He didn't know about Black or the Trio at that point.  The 
> desire to catch Lupin was the sole catalyst for Snape's actions.  The 
> presence of the Trio (which Snape did not suspect until he arrived at 
> the Willow or confirm until he arrived at the Shack) did not cause 
> Snape to change his conduct at all, IMHO.  So no, I don't think 
> Snape's motives were honorable.  He wanted to get Lupin fired, and 
> that is the only reason he ventured out that night.

Eloise
Unfortunately true!

> I'll tell you what.  If someone should be credited with having 
> genuine concern for the Trio, it should be Lupin.  Lupin did know 
> that the Trio was in the company of a convicted murder and a dead 
> man.  He raced to the scene knowing that he was cutting the timing on 
> his transformation fine indeed <nods to Mahoney as she borrows the 
> brilliant Bewitching Hour Theory> and disarms everyone so he can sort 
> things out.  Despite the shocking events unfolding, Lupin does 
> express concern for Ron:  "Lupin made toward [Ron], looking 
> concerned . . . "  If the Trio should thank anyone, it is Lupin, not 
> Snape.

Eloise
Definitely. Good egg, that Lupin.

> Cindy (not disputing that Harry should have thanked Snape for keeping 
> Harry on his broom)
> 
> 
Eloise
At least we can agree on that!

Marina (on another of my posts)

> A send-up of stereotypcial flamboyant gay behavior.  It seems to be
> accepted wisdom in the popular US media that gay men are fascinated by
> interior decorating and say "marvelous" a lot. So when you compared
> Snape to a flamboyant interior designer, the image popped up.  Snape
> is certainly flamboyant, and since I refuse to 'ship him I'm in no
> position to make statements about which way he swings, but I refuse to
> believe that the word "marvelous" would ever pass his greasy lips.
> 

Eloise

Should have stuck this in with my last post. Just for the record, not that it 
should matter, I should point out that the interior designer I mentioned does 
have a wife and daughter. He's 'camp' in a theatrical way, but not as far as 
I'm aware, in any other. I was in no way implying anything about Snape's 
sexuality!

Thanks for elucidating the pink flamingo. If  I can ever bring myself to 
despatch it, I'll send you a featherboa for George. I don't think it would do 
much for the decor. I'm resisting Lollipops as far as I can, though I don't 
know how long I can keep up the fight. I'll certainly volunteer to scrub the 
graffiti off the Flirtiac Dinghy! That's just too much. (But don't tell 
Elkins, or she might not let me on that kayak, or inflatable or whatever it 
is Cindy keeps trying to drown that Avery chap from. Do you think its safe on 
there?)

Eloise...wondering what you do with a plastic flamingo. Do you stick them in 
garden ponds, the way people here have model herons, to deter the real thing 
from eating your fish?



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