[HPforGrownups] Scar musings/SUCCESS/D's Edge/Snape's motivation

[Porphyria]

No: HPFGUIDX 36596

In a previous message I wrote:

> Personally, I
> > think the fact that Snape *was* looking right at Harry when his scar 
> burned
> > that night was what tipped off Snape that Quirrell was suspicious. 
> Quirrell
> > stated in no uncertain terms that Snape suspected him before the
> > Halloween/Troll incident.

Eloise replied:

> Can I just clarify the first paragraph? From what I remember of your
> original post, Snape was putting two and two together  (as only he can, 
> as
> canon would put it) because he felt his Dark Mark at the same time as he
> observed Harry's reaction to the pain in his scar? If that's not what 
> you
> meant, it certainly how I now read it, thanks to your inspiration.

I had originally tried to make a distinction between what we know to be 
more or less canonical fact and what was merely a damned good idea. We 
do know Snape was looking at Harry when H. theatrically shrieked and 
clapped his hand to his forehead; unfortunately, we have no evidence 
that Snape's scar was tingling as well. But I did suggest it was 
possible, and why not! Glad it was inspiring! If Snape's scar does act 
as an indicator of Voldemort infestation it provides a lot of future 
plot potential, which is what I was hoping for. (I was also originally 
arguing that it might also explain a lot of Snape's concern, worry and 
suspicion regarding Harry.)

I still like the idea that Dumbledore might be able to triangulate 
Voldemort's position based on the conditions of Harry's and Snape's 
scars. As in "OK, Snape, you floo to London and report back to me by the 
head-in-the-fireplace method. Great. OK, now, on a scale of 1 to 10, how 
would you describe the level of tingliness in your scar? Right. Harry, 
yours? Right." Then transcribing down positions and figures into a 
magical GPS chart, jimmying a magically-modified-Astrolabe and shouting 
in triumph "Aha! LV is currently down in the kitchens, relieving the 
House Elves of our overstock of Jam Tarts!"

Well, OK, something like that.

> And of course, *that*s why the Dark Mark acts as an identifier. It 
> doesn't
> matter how visible it is. I 've always had problems with this identifier
> concept anyway: you're not exactly going to show anyone the Dark Mark, 
> unless
> you're certain that the person you're showing it to is on your side 
> already,
> are you?

Good point. Doesn't it always crack you up when Fudge says regarding 
Harry, "You'll forgive me, Dumbledore, but I've never heard of a curse 
scar acting as an alarm bell before...." Ha! Isn't that the whole point! 
Further evidence that either Fudge is far too stupid to be a Ravenclaw 
(thank you very much) or, as we rightly suspect, Ever So Evil.

> But there must be situations where, given the secretive nature of
> the organisation, DEs might not recognise each other. Lots of potential 
> for
> friendly fire incidents, and all that. So DEs *feel* their own Mark 
> burning
> or tingling or something when they're in the presence of another DE so 
> that
> they know they're in safe company.

This is a really good thought. Especially since the DE's were cloaked, 
hooded and *masked* at the time of their late-night frolics. If you 
needed a spy or an infiltrator, they'd need to have a genuine Dark Mark 
in order to pass. If the Mark didn't tingle then there'd be a lot of 
potential for a Good Guy to club a DE over the head and change into his 
clothes, just as you've seen in every action/adventure movie that ever 
was. Boy, I hope JKR is thinking this through as well as we are. ;-)

> Perhaps that's why Snape suddnly clutches
> at his arm during the pyjama party: it's not just guilt, or whatever 
> emotion
> you want to ascribe to him at that point; Moody's presence and 
> particularly
> his thoughts about Snape as DE are actually affecting the Mark.

Hmmm. I really like the idea of Snape's having properly hysterical pain 
there, especially since he acts ashamed of reacting to the pain, as if 
it shows up a weakness. Maybe the pain was real (real in the sense of 
physiological, not psychosomatic), but Snape misinterpreted it as 
emotional, and thus missed the tip-off that "Moody" was in fact evil.

That reminds me. Has anyone speculated on the effect of Polyjuice on the 
Dark Mark? If Snape took on someone else's appearance this way, would 
the still mark show or burn on his arm? Likewise, if someone Polyjuiced 
themselves into a DE would they sport the Mark too? Given the dramatic 
way that Crouch Jr's body transformed and needed Moody's prostetic eye 
and leg, it strikes me as a deeply physical transformation, so you 
wonder how much it affects.

> Now, I wonder whether that set alarm bells ringing? I wonder if he told
> Dumbledore? Whether it helped Dumbledore eventually make the connection?

Unfortunately I don't see any evidence of this. You'd think that 
Dumbledore would have been a little more protective of Harry before the 
very end if he had reason to think that "Moody" was really a DE. 
However, it would have been amusing if Snape did tell Dumbledore that 
Moody was suspicious and Dumbledore disregarded it as Snape's usual 
paranoia. However, I doubt it. I think Snape really was mentally 
derailed by Crouch Jr.

Porphyria:
> >I do agree with the others who have remarked that it seemed like 
> Dumbledore
> >allowed Harry to encounter Quirrell as some sort of practice. If that 
> was his
> >plan, then I have no idea how he managed to keep Snape from interfering
> (since
> >Snape doesn't share Dumbledore's fondness for letting Harry endanger
> himself).
> >But maybe he did somehow, maybe he told him to back off   

Eloise:
> The problem I addressed with my SUCCESS theory.

Yes, but your SUCCESS theory postulates that it was Quirrell who 
disabled Snape, and this after he already knows he's up to no good. The 
thought of Q. getting the best of Snape when Snape has every reason to 
suspect him just breaks my heart. So perhaps it was...Dumbledore who 
slipped a slow-acting tranquilizer into Snape's pumpkin juice before he 
left for London. At least we can forgive Snape for trusting Dumbledore 
to serve him a drink. :-) I think we can even use your same acronym.

Oh, on the subject of Dumbldore's Edge, Mercia wrote:

> But I did find Porphyia's (I think) explanation a
> while back of some of Dumbledore's actions pretty convincing. I think
> she was suggesting a Dumbledore acting out of a certain ruthlessness
> for the cause (with Edge if you like, as I myself suggested some time
> ago) but not out of evil intent. Apologies if I have misremembered.

Tragically, no! It wasn't me! But I do find this line of argument 
fascinating and will myself soon root out and reread those posts. When I 
find their real author, I will let you know, unless they identify 
themselves first. :-) In the mean time, while I appreciate having my 
handle associated with great posts, I'm feeling a little paranoid now 
imagining the real interpreter of Dumbledore, not quite knowing my real 
appearance, sticking pins into a voodoo doll with long blond braids...

OK, since this post is already all over the place, and I was already 
engaging Eloise in conversation on the subject of Snape, I'm going to 
borrow from yet another post:

Cindy wrote, regarding Snape in the Shrieking Shack:

 > The bottom line is that Snape left his office with one important
 > piece of information -- that Lupin was headed toward the Shrieking
 > Shack.  He didn't know about Black or the Trio at that point.  The
 > desire to catch Lupin was the sole catalyst for Snape's actions.  The
 > presence of the Trio (which Snape did not suspect until he arrived at
 > the Willow or confirm until he arrived at the Shack) did not cause
 > Snape to change his conduct at all, IMHO.  So no, I don't think
 > Snape's motives were honorable.  He wanted to get Lupin fired, and
 > that is the only reason he ventured out that night.

And Eloise replied:
 > Unfortunately true!

Eloise! How could you give up so easily! And when you were doing such a 
good job of defending him!

Amanda has already pointed out that grown-ups have complicated reasons 
for what they do, but let me clarify what was going on here. Snape did 
indeed go to the shack knowing only that Lupin was headed there, but his 
desire to nail Lupin was *inseparable* from the fact that he was already 
convinced Lupin was helping Black into the castle. Snape states this 
clearly in the Shack. Remember Black? The guy who was universally 
believed to have betrayed the Potters? The guy who's trying to murder 
Harry? Him? I think Snape was far more traumatized by the death of the 
Potters than he's willing to admit (erm, for whatever reason, not nec. 
one involving sticky sweet things) and he's still livid that James 
trusted his friends and got himself killed. (I have a whole theory on 
this, but I'll save it for another post.) Moreover, Snape is, 
present-tense in PoA, emotionally involved in trying to protect Harry 
from Black. Hence his anger when he catches Harry coming back from 
Hogsmeade, a situation which didn't initially have to do with Lupin. 
Putting the Shack incident alongside Snape's concern for Harry here (as 
well as in PS/SS) it's clear to me at least that Snape's hatred for 
Sirius and suspicion of Lupin are entirely bound up in his grief over 
what happened to the Potters, his concern for Harry, and his own 
adolescent experience with them. It's a very complicated set of motives 
and it's not fair to say he had one and only one reason to go after 
Lupin.

It would be completely out of character for Snape to get all misty over 
the condition of the Trio when he found them in the Shack. He 
eavesdropped long enough to notice that H&H were completely unharmed 
(albeit possibly confounded), and yes Ron was injured, but you know 
something? Snape couldn't do anything about Ron's injury until he 
dispatched Lupin and Sirius, which he was knocked out in the process of 
doing. And what was the *very* first thing that Snape did when he 
finally woke up again? He got Ron onto a stretcher, first, before anyone 
else. So I'd say he did notice and care that Ron was injured, it was 
just a while before he could do anything about it.

Finally, one last matter of crucial importance:

> Eloise...wondering what you do with a plastic flamingo.

One puts it on the front lawn of one's mobile home (or should I say 
caravan?). Marina's estimation, that they have to do with Floridean 
glamour, is actually quite generous. Plastic flamingos usually allude to 
a tropical luxe miserably lacking in the yards they decorate.

~~Porphyria





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