Hermione and Ron (was Ron splitting with Harry and Hermione)

[Penny Linsenmayer]

No: HPFGUIDX 38663

Hi --

Penny wrote:
>It'd be great actually if Ron & Hermione did date for a time &
realize how completely & utterly wrong they are for each other
(the "greatest literary mismatch of all time" as Jim F put it
recently) & break up amicably.

and:

>Ron's not my favorite character by any means, and I think he's
absolutely, positively all wrong for Hermione.

Dave responded with:

<<<This is something that has bugged me for some time.  At one (OT)
level, it's just that I'm deeply suspicious of all attempts to
matchmake by third parties, and consider, almost in principle, that
one can't know whether two people are suited for one another.>>>>

I definitely agree with this fully.  Please qualify everything I'm about to
say with this -- it's a subjective third-party determination and noone but
the fictional characters of Harry, Ron and Hermione could say whether I'm
right or wrong (*if* they could even say that themselves).

Dave:

<<<But, on a more HPFGU sort of level, am I right in understanding that
the basis for this assessment is their continued bickering?>>>>

Somewhat correct.  That is definitely part of it as far as I'm concerned.  I
just don't *understand* romantic relationships where the parties bicker as
their primary (or even secondary) mode of communication.  If bickering
permeated my everyday life, I'd be quite unhappy.  It's just not *my* style.
So, when I see a relationship, like the current friendship between Ron &
Hermione, that is characterized by incessant (and sometimes nasty)
bickering, I can't even begin to fathom how they would turn that into a
healthy long-term romantic relationship.  I know, I know.  "Opposites
attract."  "All that bickering equals passionate sparks."  Yada, yada, yada.
Yeah, right.

But, their bickering is only *part* of my objection to R/H.  More to come
...

Dave said:

<<<<<<<<The way I see the bickering is as follows:  Ron and Hermione already
have a very deep relationship through shared experiences>>>

As do Harry and Hermione.  :--)

We're talking about 3 inter-connected friendships, so I do object to people
who argue that Harry/Hermione have a "sibling" relationship but R/H don't.
Please.  They all have the same basic friendship at base, and it makes
little sense to me to argue that one pairing is like a "sibling"
relationship and therefore squicky in the romantic sense but the other
isn't.  This is not at all consistent & carries little weight with me.  [I
know Dave isn't arguing that point above ... it just came to mind as I was
noting that H/H have the same deep relationship of shared experiences as R/H
...OR as Ha/R for that matter].

While I'm on this aspect, I'll also comment that I don't care for the
comparisons of the "quality" of the friendships amongst the members of the
Trio (such as "Harry cares for Ron more than Hermione" or "Ron has a closer
relationship to Hermione than Harry does").  Ditto on people who try to
objectively determine the "worth" of the time spent between 2 of the 3
friends (i.e., is the time spent between Ron & Hermione at the end of PS/SS
worrying over Harry "more" meaningful than the time that Harry & Hermione
spent together in GoF while Ron and Harry weren't speaking to each other).

<<<<<<(As yet another parenthesis, am I missing something in the
American usage of the term 'dating'?  To my British ears it connotes
two people who don't know each other very well, consciously trying
out a closer, but still not very close, relationship.  So there might
be sex but very limited understanding.  As I explain below, if H&R
were to become romantically involved I think they would completely
leapfrog this step.)>>>>>

Whoa!  To my American ear, this sounds like you're saying they'd move from
platonic friends to sexual relations without anything at all intervening?  A
bit abrupt.  Especially for teenagers.  :--)

Dating is more than just "getting to know each other" over here.  Does
"going out" make a difference to you?  Hermione doesn't need to get to know
either Harry or Ron, but I doubt that she'd jump into bed with either one of
them without a few snogging sessions first.  <g>

Dave:

<<<<<<<At the same time, they have very different
perceptions of what is important in life, and of the right way to
act.  I believe their bickering stems from their unwillingness to
acknowledge the value of this difference;  instead, they are engaged
in a continual power struggle over their two world-views.  This is
expressed in arguments about, for example, how homework should be
tackled.>>>>>>

Ah, now is the heart of the objection from my standpoint.  Take social
issues for example -- something more important than how homework is to be
handled.  Ron cannot understand Hermione's point of view on House Elves (or
giants for that matter).  But, it goes beyond "not understanding it."  He
harps on it and berates her for her position.  He brings it up at every
opportunity.  I have the sense that he's trying to *win* an unspoken
argument.  I see them as having very fundamentally different outlooks.  This
isn't an impossible barrier to break through (look at James Carville/Mary
Matalin).  But, it's not an ordinary thing, and it extends to a fair number
of subjects.  They would have to learn to accord each other more respect
than they are doing currently.  Again, this isn't impossible.  I just don't
yet see the potential for this to work for the two of them.

<<<<<<*However*, the fact that they engage in this power struggle is one of
the main indicators to me that there is more to their relationship.
Why doesn't Hermione just give up on Ron's attitude to homework?  Why
doesn't Ron accept Hermione's attachment to the library?  Each of
them wants to be responsible for the other in a way that, IMO, is
uncharacteristic of friendship that is happy with the state it's at.>>>>>>>

Eh, now I'm not so sure on *this* point.  To use your homework example,
Hermione is absolutely, positively just as "in your face argumentative" with
Harry as she is with Ron.

"You said you'd already worked out that egg clue!" said Hermione
indignantly.

Nah.  She treats Harry no differently than Ron in this regard.  Which brings
me to: *she* is still a wildcard.  Yes, Ron may be needling her because *he*
has a crush on her that he's not really ready to acknowledge.  But, I don't
see much difference in the way that Hermione treats Ron from the way she
treats Harry.  She's *harder* on Harry in some respects.

Nope, Dave, you'll have to try again on this one.  :--)

<<<<So, as I understand it, if they were to 'date', they would have
already tackled, if not actually removed, the cause of the
bickering.>>>>>>>>

No, I don't think so.   I think bickering is the defining characteristic of
their relationship; it's how they interact.  I don't think it's that there
are no bickering couples on the planet, and that romantically-involved!R/H
would suddenly be lovey-dovey and not bickering.  I know there are plenty of
bickering romantic partners (though I don't really know any of them
personally I don't think).  That isn't the issue.   Ron & Hermione could
have a romantic relationship (and a successful one), despite the bickering.
But, they'll have to grapple with their fundamental differences of opinion
on various subjects & come to grips with the fact that they may not be able
to ever "convert" the other one to their way of thinking.

On a more problematic level (for me), it's that I don't think they would
each bring to the relationship what the other party *currently* needs.
Right now (at age 14/15), what Ron *appears* to need is some arm-candy
and/or someone who would build up his self-esteem.  I think Ron would have a
very hard time living in the shadow of his girlfriend's successes at this
point in his life.  We see that he *wants* to be the center of attention
(the way he inflated the Second Task scenario for the admiration of girls).
Hermione would be a tough girlfriend to have if you're a guy with a
self-esteem issue.  <g>  *Especially* if, as I believe, Hermione & Harry
both continue to outpace Ron in terms of successes (I'm thinking here of
Ron's desire to be told he has the makings of an auror ... but Moody didn't
give him this boost).

Hermione, OTOH, isn't *currently* going to be too willing to sublimate her
own ambitions & successes to pacify an insecure boyfriend.  We've talked
before about whether she has a "thing" for "famous" guys.  I don't think
it's so much "famous" guys, but I can definitely see her wanting a guy who
was successful (this is *not* a categorical statement that Ron isn't or
hasn't been or never will be successful ... but he's *not* the same level of
successful as Krum or Harry, not superficially IMO).  I think she might need
someone who is willing to let her be as successful as she can be (and wants
to be), and I think Ron would feel incredibly frustrated in this role.  And,
I think she would end up feeling incredibly frustrated with Ron for this
same reason.

Now ... can this all change?  Absolutely.  These kids are teenagers.
Everything I just said should be qualified with a huge "these are growing,
maturing kids who are not yet fully-formed human beings."  So, I'd probably
also be disappointed if they ended up with their life-mates at age 15.  So
much happens to people between the ages of 15-25 (esp. between 20-30).  I'd
hate to think that the wizarding world operates in such a way that people
are *expected* to find a life-mate by the time they finish up their studies
at Hogwarts (or similar institution).

I'd also like to comment briefly again about the love triangle business.
Lexan seems to be mis-interpreting my theories.  The love triangle theory
that I'm most fond of does *not* (equivocally does *not*) involve Ron and
Hermione dating & then breaking up, with H/H happening after this R/H
breakup, in canon years.  Perhaps I was not entirely clear.

1.  FITD -- this theory holds that Ron likes Hermione, who likes Harry, who
likes noone or someone outside the Trio (this could be Ginny! or Cho or a
student we've not met yet ....or Moaning Myrtle!).  So, you have the
potential for all that great teenage hormonal stuff where there are raging
hormones, miscommunications abounding, the potential for both humor OR drama
OR both, depending on how JKR wanted to play it.  This theory does not
require that Ron be evil or dead.  It does not mean that R/H would never,
ever happen.  Note especially that it does *not* preclude H/G.  All it means
is that in Book 5, Ron & Hermione wouldn't get together immediately.

2.  I commented that, as an H/H shipper, I'd like nothing better than for
R/H to date, break up amicably (realizing that they aren't right for each
other).  I stand by that.  I don't need Ron to be dead or evil for H/H to
eventually happen.  All I need is a social system that doesn't pair people
off for life at age 15.  :--)  But, this is not connected to the above love
triangle.  I'm not suggesting that in the canon R/H would date, break up,
and then H/H would get together.  I'm simply stating that if R/H date in
canon, I'd prefer that they break up amicably (remaining friends) and go on
about their adult lives (with H/H hooking up later ... as mature adults
who've experienced life).

I hope that's more clear.

Penny