Hermione and Ron (SHIP)

[Penny Linsenmayer]

No: HPFGUIDX 38695

Hi --

Responses to Barb, Pippin & Dave --

I said:

<<<<<Ron wants to be the shining star, he wants to stand out, he wants 
to succeed -- he has a driving ambition (his heart's deepest desire 
in fact) to be the "best of them all."  So, he's insecure about his 
accomplishments & his abilities ... his insecurity in this regard is 
only fueled by having the most famous wizard on earth as his best 
friend and having the star student at Hogwarts as his other best 
friend.  I would conjecture that what Ron could really use as far as 
his temporary self-esteem goes, is a girlfriend who doesn't outshine 
him at every turn.>>>>

Barb responded:

<<<I find myself unable to agree with most of this.>>>>

That's okay.  I find myself unable to agree with most of what you wrote too, so I suppose we're just interpreting Ron differently.  <g>

<<<"Shining star?"  "Driving ambition?"  I'm afraid you must be confusing him with Percy.>>>

Nope.  I think Percy gets pegged as the "ambitious one."  But, IMO, that overlooks the fact that *all* of the Weasley males are arguably ambitious, except perhaps for Arthur.  

Arthur -- I say "perhaps" he's not so ambitious, but really I wonder if it isn't that his ambition is subverted to his conscience?  Molly says that Arthur's been "held back" at the MOM all those years, presumably for his stance on muggle relations.  So, it may be that he has ambition but just chooses not to exercise it.

Bill & Charlie -- Both were successful at Hogwarts & both have attained jobs that *sound* reasonably prestigious.  Hard to say for certain on both of them without more details .... but I'd peg them both to be at least moderately ambitious (if not in fact highly driven).

Percy -- No need to elaborate.  Mr. Ambition.

Fred & George -- We had no inkling that behind the comic facade lurked two ambitious planners until GoF.  But, in GoF, we learn that the Twins have masterminded a business plan & saved capital for years.  We also know that they'll go to some questionable lengths to put their plans into action.  Ambitious?  Heh.  Yeah, I'd say so.

Ron -- Again, he *is* ambitious IMO.  I think Barb that you're focusing on academically-tied success & ambitions.  No, Ron isn't ambitious under that model.  He's outwardly rejecting the Percy model for success.  But, he's certainly got plenty of drive to better himself ... to not be poor all his life & to achieve a certain level of recognition.  We had a saying in law school: those who make As become law professors, those who make Bs become judges, and those who make Cs become millionaires.  <g>  In other words, academia is often not always the route to all success in life, and Ron (and the Twins) seem to know this.     

<<<<<<Far too much is made of Ron seeing himself in the 
Mirror of Erised as Head Boy and Quidditch Captain (his heart's 
desire at the age of ELEVEN, remember) and not enough is made of his 
resistance to the lure of the mirror, his willingness to sacrifice, 
and his loyalty.>>>>>>>>>

I actually wasn't relying entirely on the Mirror of Erised scene in making my statements about Ron's ambition.  Though I do note that we've certainly no evidence that Ron's deepest desire has *changed* in the last 3 yrs.  But, in any case, I think we see his ambition in other ways.  Like the Twins, much of this comes out in GoF I think.  His statement "I hate being poor" after he's confronted Harry about Harry not noticing the leprechaun gold disappearing.  I don't interpret that remark as a simple declarative statement; I interpret it as "I hate being poor *and I intend to do things to make sure I don't stay that way all my life.*"  He is obviously eager to become an auror once Moody mentions to Harry & Hermione that they have the skill set to pursue that career.    

<<<<<<He seems far happier being a popular person with good friends rather 
than someone others are resenting.>>>>>>

Do you really think Ron is *popular* or is he just the type guy who can fit in easily enough with other people?  

<<<<<<He may sometimes seem to be resenting Harry for his fame and fortune, but Ron actually comes off as pretty content about his position and lack of responsibility.>>>>>>

Evidence that he is in fact content about his position?  I see the reverse myself.  Your interpretation that he gets some nice perks without being a moving target for the DEs may or may not square with *his* interpretation of his situation.

<<<<<<Hermione already outshines Ron academically, and he doesn't mind a 
bit.  Why should this change if they were to become a couple?  He 
seems rather proud of having a best friend, in fact, who does so 
well in her studies.>>>>>>>>

Sometimes he seems proud of it.  But, academia is not really where Ron wants to make his mark.  He *does* want to be an auror though.  Crouch-as-Moody thinks Harry would make a great auror.  He also thinks Hermione would.  Despite obvious angling by Ron, he declines to say anything about Ron.  For whatever Crouch-as-Moody's judgment is worth, this might be a potential landmine later though.  Let's just say that Hermione lands a coveted position post-Hogwarts, a position that her boyfriend Ron wanted but didn't get -- is he happy about this?  My interpretation is possibly not (it's a little hard to extrapolate out what Ron might be like 5 yrs down the road).  Current!Ron would, IMHO, be not so very happy about it.  

<<<<<<<<<his mother tries to guilt him into being more ambitious than he is 
(she also berates the twins for not being prefects) so it's possible 
that he's reacting to his mother's pressure when he sees himself in 
the mirror covered in glory; in the end, perhaps pleasing his mother 
is really his heart's desire, and he knows what would please her, 
even though it's possibly not in his nature to deliver those 
particular things.>>>>>>>>

Hmmm... well, I guess we interpret these things differently.  If the Mirror shows a person what his/her deepest most desperate desire is, isn't it a bit odd to think that a person wouldn't have his/her own independent desires, apart from wanting to please someone else superficially?  

Moving on to Pippin: 

<<<<<IMO, Harry's missing a whole lot more than positive feedback. I 
see what you're saying about Harry as more applicable to Ron. 
Ron's the one who just needs some positive feedback, a sense 
that what he's doing matters to somebody.  IMO, Ron wants to 
feel that his friends and family appreciate him. I don't see him as 
needing strokes from any one else. He's not miserable because 
Harry got chosen Tri-wizard Champion, remember, but because 
he thinks Harry didn't take him into his confidence about it.>>>>>>>

That's what Ron says.  Hermione says that Ron's jealous of Harry's fame.  I think Ron was angry that Harry got the opportunity to be a Tri-Wizard Champion even though he was 3 yrs too young.  I don't think it's so much that Harry wasn't taking Ron into his confidence.  At least that's not my spin on it. 

<<<<<<<Whatever jealousy he has of Harry's fame and wealth is minor. 
He's seen enough of Malfoy to know that wealth isn't everything, 
and that Harry's fame comes with the price of a nice shiny target 
on his back.>>>>>>>>>

Minor?  Really?  He mentions money (or the lack thereof) often enough for someone who isn't too hung up about it.  I think Percy is ambitious for power.  I think the Twins are ambitious for money.  I think Ron is ambitious for some mixture of both.  

<<<<<<<< I feel that if Harry  connects 
with anyone on a more intimate level, it's going to knock the 
scabs off some of those wounds.  When that happens, he's 
going to be  less functional than he is now, I think, and a lot more 
demanding of whoever he's with. I think those emotional 
demands would be pretty hard on someone who is thoroughly 
wrapped up in a lifestyle of achievement.>>>>>>

That's a good point.  <g>  Quite possible that Harry might become emotionally needy.  Personally I see Hermione as the nurturing type, but I know not everyone agrees with that assessment.  I guess I see the risk that Ron would be bitter at being overshadowed by his girlfriend as a far greater risk than that Harry might become too emotionally needy for Successful!Hermione to handle.   Then again, maybe she's not too well-suited for either of her best friends after all.   

<<<<<<<Harry might be satisfied at first to hook up with someone who 
didn't overtax his capacity for intimacy, but I think after a while he 
would start to wonder what was missing in his life and I think, if 
his partner was Hermione, she would feel the same. It's pretty 
hard to feel close to someone when  you're hiding your feelings 
from them.>>>>>>>

So, you've switched scenarios here?  In one scenario, we have emotionally clingy Harry, who would be too co-dependent for Hermione.  In this scenario, you're suggesting that Harry would be distant & not fully operating to full potential if engaged in a relationship with Hermione?  Well, those are possibilities.  I'd say that they're about as likely as my scenario of Ron being bitter & angry that his girlfriend was over-shadowing him.  

Seriously, though, I was not suggesting that H/H would work because Harry could remain closed-off emotionally.  I was arguing that Harry wouldn't feel the need to be the dominant party in the relationship and would therefore not be threatened by Hermione's successes.  This doesn't have any bearing on whether or not he would be fully-engaged in a romantic relationship; that's a completely separate issue.

Switching lastly & briefly to Dave, who said:

<<<<<<Less sure about this.  I think Ron may simply fail to realise that 
what he believes intellectually about elves, giants etc. contradicts 
what is in practice his positive and open outlook (as I see it) 
towards other individuals.  He is partially aware of it over Hagrid.  
If he does relaise it he could move a lot closer to Hermione's 
position on those issues.>>>>>>>>>

I've argued this point before, in a non-shipping context.  I think Ron is just engaging in the "Well, XX is an exception" but retaining his general prejudice against the group to whom XX belongs.  Making special exceptions for Hagrid & Lupin doesn't mean Ron isn't still prejudiced.  But, even if you're right & Ron isn't really prejudiced, he certainly does treat Hermione's approach with disdain.  And, so I stand by my position that they have some fundamental differences of opinion *at this time.*

I said: <<<<> No, I don't think so.   I think bickering is the defining 
characteristic of their relationship; it's how they interact.>>>>

Dave said:

<<<<<<<<Now here we have a straight difference over what is written in 
canon.  I see plenty of bickering, but 'defining characteristic' - 
not me.  We need Amy's list.>>>>>>>>>>

I don't think this entirely something we can settle by just consulting canon.  What I interpret as bickering may differ markedly from what is bickering as far as you're concerned.  I think it's a subjective thing in the end.  And, yes, Amy Z, I do realize and agree that what I think about bickering couples doesn't amount to a hill of beans in terms of what might happen with R/H.  I said as much in my message on that.  I was just noting that *I* (emphasize *I*) do not understand relationships conducted in this manner, and it would make me terribly unhappy to bicker with my SO.  It might make JKR happy.  More importantly, it might make Hermione & Ron happy, and if so, great.  :--)

Penny










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