Hermione and Ron (SHIP)

[blpurdom]

No: HPFGUIDX 38696

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> Responses to Barb, Pippin & Dave --
> 
> I said:

> <<<"Shining star?"  "Driving ambition?"  I'm afraid you must be 
confusing him with Percy.>>>
> 
> Nope.  I think Percy gets pegged as the "ambitious one."  But, 
> IMO, that overlooks the fact that *all* of the Weasley males are 
> arguably ambitious, except perhaps for Arthur.  

But you're missing something here; when a Weasley really wants 
something, he grabs for it.  Bill probably worked quite hard to 
become Head Boy and get all of those O.W.L.s. (We don't hear about 
his N.E.W.T.s, though, do we?)  Charlie seemed to be a natural at 
Quidditch, but to get the entire team to win the cup, he must have 
put in hours in training everyone and devising strategies.  Percy 
obviously worked hard in school and is a bit of a workaholic out of 
school.  Even the twins are a bit compulsive about what really 
matters to them (the joke merchandise and getting their money from 
Bagman).  

What does Ron do?  Skives off his homework, makes up Divination 
charts, crosses his fingers and hopes for the best in Potions and 
begs Hermione to copy her History of Magic essays.  If being Head 
Boy were really his ambition, he'd be working toward that, which he 
clearly is not.  What DO we see him working hard at?  Finding out 
about the Philosopher's Stone, finding out about the Chamber of 
Secrets, helping Harry prepare for the second and third tasks of the 
Tournament.  Are any of these things likely to get him fame and 
glory?  No.  Yet this is what he concentrates on.  Who wouldn't like 
fame and glory?  Sure, it would be nice.  But you make him sound 
like a Slytherin.  He toils in relative obscurity for the greater 
good and gets no notice for it.  He KNOWS that he contributed to 
Harry's successes, too, and who doesn't like to be acknowledged for 
doing things like that?  It's just fair.  (That's one reason it's 
quite nice that Dumbledore gives him his points for the chess 
game.)  However, he doesn't make a fuss about no one giving him 
credit for his malfunctioning wand being a good thing at the end of 
CoS or for volunteering to die in the Shrieking Shack in PoA.  He 
isn't constantly running about pointing out the good things he's 
done and demanding the spotlight because of it.
 
> But, he's certainly got plenty of drive to better himself ... to 
> not be poor all his life & to achieve a certain level of 
> recognition.  We had a saying in law school: those who make As 
> become law professors, those who make Bs become judges, and those 
> who make Cs become millionaires.  <g>  In other words, academia is 
> often not always the route to all success in life, and Ron (and 
> the Twins) seem to know this.     

Wanting the RESULTS of the work is not the same thing at all.  As I 
said, who wouldn't want to be rich?  But when Ron says this it's 
rather pie-in-the-sky.  It's a grass-is-always-greener attitude.  
Most people feel that way, regardless of how much ambition they 
have.  I feel that Ron's greatest ambition is actually to know he 
has done the right thing, which he has done, repeatedly, often with 
no acknowledgement whatsoever.  His actions speak louder than his 
words (grousing about money and fame).  If that had happened to 
Percy, he would have been writing letters to the Daily Prophet 
demanding to know why his deeds weren't being covered on the front 
page.  Ron is not very much like Percy at all.

> <<<<<<Far too much is made of Ron seeing himself in the 
> Mirror of Erised as Head Boy and Quidditch Captain (his heart's 
> desire at the age of ELEVEN, remember) and not enough is made of 
his resistance to the lure of the mirror, his willingness to 
sacrifice, and his loyalty.>>>>>>>>>

> He is obviously eager to become an auror once Moody mentions to 
> Harry & Hermione that they have the skill set to pursue that 
> career.    

He's eager not to be dissed by the coolest teacher in school and not 
to seem unworthy of his friends.  Not the same thing at all.

> <<<<<<He seems far happier being a popular person with good 
friends rather than someone others are resenting.>>>>>>
> 
> Do you really think Ron is *popular* or is he just the type guy 
who can fit in easily enough with other people?  

It's hard to separate the two.  People obviously like being around 
him.  When he and Harry are on the outs, he doesn't have any trouble 
finding other people to socialize with.
 
> <<<<<<He may sometimes seem to be resenting Harry for his fame and 
fortune, but Ron actually comes off as pretty content about his 
position and lack of responsibility.>>>>>>
> 
> Evidence that he is in fact content about his position?  I see the 
reverse myself.  Your interpretation that he gets some nice perks 
without being a moving target for the DEs may or may not square with 
*his* interpretation of his situation.

The evidence has already been given.  He's done many good things for 
which he gets little or no credit, without hitting the roof about 
it.  That's being content.

> <<<<<<Hermione already outshines Ron academically, and he doesn't 
mind a bit.  Why should this change if they were to become a 
couple?  He seems rather proud of having a best friend, in fact, who 
does so well in her studies.>>>>>>>>
> 
> Sometimes he seems proud of it.  But, academia is not really where 
Ron wants to make his mark.  He *does* want to be an auror though.  

As noted, to say this one passage means he wants to be an Auror is a 
stretch.  He's just feeling left out.

> <<<<<<<<<his mother tries to guilt him into being more ambitious 
than he is (she also berates the twins for not being prefects) so 
it's possible that he's reacting to his mother's pressure when he 
sees himself in the mirror covered in glory; in the end, perhaps 
pleasing his mother is really his heart's desire, and he knows what 
would please her, even though it's possibly not in his nature to 
deliver those particular things.>>>>>>>>
> 
> Hmmm... well, I guess we interpret these things differently.  If 
the Mirror shows a person what his/her deepest most desperate desire 
is, isn't it a bit odd to think that a person wouldn't have his/her 
own independent desires, apart from wanting to please someone else 
superficially?  

Not at all.  Ron frequently speaks of how his mother would react to 
something.  Molly's opinion is clearly very important to him.  Many 
people go through their entire lives trying to please their parents 
and do not ever give much thought to what they really want to do.  
Perhaps this is really why Ron seems somewhat aimless at this point 
in his life; he's not really focussing on what HE wants as much as 
his mother.

> Moving on to Pippin: 
> 
> <<<<< He's not miserable because Harry got chosen Tri-wizard 
Champion, remember, but because he thinks Harry didn't take him into 
his confidence about it.>>>>>>>
> 
> That's what Ron says.  Hermione says that Ron's jealous of Harry's 
fame.  I think Ron was angry that Harry got the opportunity to be a 
Tri-Wizard Champion even though he was 3 yrs too young.  I don't 
think it's so much that Harry wasn't taking Ron into his 
confidence.  At least that's not my spin on it. 

I have to agree with Pippin here.  It's also consistent with Ron's 
biggest pet peeve--lack of loyalty.  He feels it was disloyal of 
Harry not confide in him about both his intent to enter the 
Tournament and the method he used to accomplish it.  He feels 
Hermione shows disloyalty to him as a friend during the whole 
Scabbers debacle in PoA.  As someone who is very, very loyal to his 
friends, he's also very, very (overly)sensitive when he believes 
that they have not returned this in kind.  He's so sensitive to it, 
in fact, that he's blind to there being extenuating circumstances 
and needs a major kick in the pants about the hissy fits he's 
thrown, IMHO.  But it's still perfectly consistent with his 
personality.  OTOH, saying he's upset about not being in the 
spotlight is NOT consistent, I believe.

> That's a good point.  <g>  Quite possible that Harry might become 
emotionally needy.  Personally I see Hermione as the nurturing type, 
but I know not everyone agrees with that assessment.  

But that's where I agree with you.  She's very nurturing toward both 
boys.  She's very supportive of Ron when the poor kid is belching up 
slugs because he defended her; she's very nurturing toward Harry 
when she's staying up with him till all hours helping him learn the 
summoning charm.  These are just two examples.  (She's also very 
sweet with Hagrid during the Buckbeak trial.)  I think 
that "nurturer" is actually the best description of her, and it is 
one reason why she would probably NOT make a good Auror, IMO, but 
that's another post.  I do think it's another reason why she'd make 
a good prefect and/or Head Girl, with the responsibility of looking 
out for younger students.

> I guess I see the risk that Ron would be bitter at being 
> overshadowed by his girlfriend as a far greater risk than that 
> Harry might become too emotionally needy for Successful!Hermione 
> to handle.   Then again, maybe she's not too well-suited for 
> either of her best friends after all.   

Non-shippers may officialy throw confetti into the air. <g>  This 
may in fact be where JKR is going with the relationship of the Trio, 
and the possibility of R/H thrown out there in GoF may be just a red 
herring.

> Switching lastly & briefly to Dave, who said:
> 
> <<<<<<Less sure about this.  I think Ron may simply fail to 
realise that what he believes intellectually about elves, giants 
etc. contradicts what is in practice his positive and open outlook 
(as I see it) towards other individuals.  He is partially aware of 
it over Hagrid.  If he does relaise it he could move a lot closer to 
Hermione's position on those issues.>>>>>>>>>
 
Actually, Ron is very PC (as far as we're concerned) about one of 
the most important issues in the wizarding world: purity of blood.  
He talks about it not mattering at all, as does Hagrid.  Ron is 
pureblood and he could be very snooty about that, like Malfoy, if he 
wanted to.  But he was taught the opposite at home.  One can assume 
that about his other attitudes, as well, and really, the attitude 
about werewolves is only practical, and he had a broken leg and 
thought the werewolf in question was aiding and abetting a murderer 
at the time.  Folks keep forgetting that.  He's still very much a 
product of his home and has yet to come into his own and develop his 
own opinions about many things.  He's parrotting much of the time 
right now.

> I said: <<<<> No, I don't think so.   I think bickering is the 
defining characteristic of their relationship; it's how they 
interact.>>>>

Eh.  The bickering is interesting.  It drives the plot.  I prefer 
not to get all shippy over the bickering.  If the three friends 
agreed on everything all the time, how interesting would that be?  I 
sometimes had to read Boxcar Children books to my daughter when she 
was younger (::shudder::) and those kids are always, "Oh!  I think 
Mr. Maguire is the thief!" "You're right.  You're so 
brilliant!"  "Yes, how do you think of these things?"  Gag-gag-barf-
barf.  (Sorry if there are BC fans out there.)  JKR has created 
three interesting main characters with distinct personalities, and 
the conflict between them also helps get some important information 
about the wizarding world into the stories without long, boring 
exposition or essays about the wizarding world breaking up the 
action.  Long live the bickering!

--Barb

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Psych
http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb