Ron (just Ron ... no SHIP); Bickering

[Penny Linsenmayer]

No: HPFGUIDX 38705

Hi --

I said: all the Weasley males are ambitious.

Barb responded:

<<<<But you're missing something here; when a Weasley really wants 
something, he grabs for it. <snip examples>

What does Ron do? Skives off his homework, makes up Divination 
charts, crosses his fingers and hopes for the best in Potions and 
begs Hermione to copy her History of Magic essays. If being Head 
Boy were really his ambition, he'd be working toward that, which he 
clearly is not. <snip>

Wanting the RESULTS of the work is not the same thing at all. As I 
said, who wouldn't want to be rich? But when Ron says this it's 
rather pie-in-the-sky. It's a grass-is-always-greener attitude. 
Most people feel that way, regardless of how much ambition they 
>have.>>>>>>>>

Nope, I still disagree.  Wanting the results *is* the very definition of ambition:

Definition #1 -- "eagerness to attain success, honor, power, fame, etc."

Definition #2 -- "an eager or strong desire to achieve something, such as fame or fortune"

Under these definitions, I think it'd be hard to argue that Ron lacks ambition.

The distinction that you're trying to draw Barb is between someone who has ambition (like Ron) and someone who is successful because they've acted on their ambitions.  There are scores of people who are ambitious but unsuccessful, many of them are what I might call "dreamers."  I completely agree that Ron does little or nothing toward remedying his desire for glory or riches.  He obviously doesn't buy into the notion that academic success is the path to power &/or riches, like his brother Percy.  But, he so far hasn't done much more than complain about being poor (and worried to himself about the success of all his brothers & his inability to distinguish himself).  It's been argued before when this topic has come up before that Ron really can't have been expected to do too much at his age, but I note that at Ron's age, the Twins were obviously already taking affirmative steps toward a goal of their business (and money).  

As for the Slytherins, they might be more accurately described as enterprising (rather than ambitious) according to my dictionary, which says that ambitious & enterprising are synonyms "associated with desire for gain or higher station in life and suggest ruthlessness of means." 

RON'S MOTIVATION IN THE GOF FIGHT --

Naama, I *knew* we'd eventually agree on something!  <vbg>

Naama argued on my side:

<<<<<Well, I have to agree with Penny here. Hermione says that Ron doesn't 
really think that Harry lied to him; that what he is really jealous. 
The reader is clearly meant to accept this as the true explanation. 
Ron was jealous - so bitter that he needed to manufacture a more 
acceptable cause on which to transfer his resentment.>>>>>>

Yes, we the readers are supposed to believe that, and that's in fact what Harry & Hermione both believe.  Note that Harry doesn't argue with Hermione about her interpretation, nor does he seem the least bit surprised really.  He's *angry*.... but he's not surprised.   

Naama goes on to say:

<<<<<<But surely if his deepest desire was to please his mother, this is 
what he would have seen in the Mirror? Molly hugging him, telling him 
he's her favorite, etc. What he sees is himself crowned with glory. I 
think we should accept this as is: Ron has a deep desire for more 
attention, recognition - the obverse side of which is his tendency to 
jealousy. It shouldn't be downplayed.>>>>>>>>>

Amen!  Dumbledore observed that Ron has been overshadowed by his brothers and their successes his whole life long and that what he wants is to *stand out.*  He wants recognition ... he wants *identity* as more than just the "youngest Weasley boy."  He wants to be special, and I agree with Naama that this trait shouldn't be downplayed.  I think he *is* special, and I think he's achieved a certain degree of "stand-out" success by his involvement in the final confrontations at the end of each year.  But, *Ron* doesn't perceive this as anything special I don't think; I think he doesn't give himself enough credit for his role in these conflicts.  

<<<<<<<I want to take the middle ground between Penny (downplaying Ron's 
unambitiousness) and Barb/Pippin (downplaying Ron's jealousy). 
Barb is right, IMO, that Ron is basically unambitious. OTOH, Penny is 
right that he has a deep longing for recognition and fame. This 
desire is Ron's weakness. He is dissatisfied with his lot, and 
therefore becomes rather easily jealous.>>>>>>>>>

Again, I don't think he's unambitious.  He has ambition; he lacks motivation perhaps.  He wants the results ... but doesn't really want to put forth much effort.  Maybe that's another reason I'm not so keen on Ron really.  I'd probably like him alot more if I thought he was actually working toward a goal instead of just grousing about his lot in life & not really taking affirmative steps to change anything.  

 Naama commented on the use of disharmony & bickering in "good" relationships within the Potterverse:

<<<<I think that JKR is generally painting good relationships as 
challenging, a bit disharmonious even. <snip great examples>

So, for JKR, it seems that healthy relationships are "spicy" - 
challenging in some ways, dynamic, even a bit turbulent [I clicked 
the thesaurus for "turbulent", and reached "riotous". It quite 
captures the essence of what I'm trying to describe.] 
She would probably join Barb in saying, "long live the bickering!">>>>>>>>

I haven't meant to suggest that I think all relationships should follow the Penny Model or that the Penny Model is spice-free.  <g>  I can fully get behind challenging, dynamic, "spicy" and even riotous (though I draw the line at turbulent ... because it implies emotional ups & downs that I could frankly live without).  But, I think I would find frequent (and certainly incessant) bickering as Harry does: tiresome & exhausting.  But then I find arguing in all its forms to be exhausting.  Now, that you point it out Naama, this may be one of the reasons I'm not a complete fan of Molly (the bickering with Arthur & her kids).

It occurs to me that there may be another problem with semantics (possibly anyway).  It seems to me that some people are defending bickering when they really mean bantering.  Bickering means to squabble or engage in *petty* quarrels.  Bantering, OTOH, is good-humored teasing, playful repartee.  Repartee is a swift retort or a witty, spirited conversation.  I'm completely in favor of banter & repartee ...but I don't think what Ron & Hermione are engaging in so far qualifies as repartee too awfully frequently.  It more often is unpleasant & petty (JKR even uses words like squabble, quarrel, snap, retort, etc. when describing their interactions).

Amy, in prefacing her excellent list of R/H interactions *other than* bickering, commented:

<<<<Man, do they bicker. It's very entertaining for the reader (this one anyway), but must 
grow tiresome if you're actually in the room (Harry is the soul of 
patience).  I suppose the main question is not whether it exceeds 
Harry's threshold or ours, but whether it exceeds their own.>>>>>>

Yes, my threshold for bickering is very low.  Harry appears to find it distasteful on occasion but generally puts up with it.  So, the question du jour: how do Ron & Hermione really feel about it?  I guess we'll find out.

More Amy:

<<<<<<<<<Is this the way a writer would portray a relationship between two 
people whose only connection was their friendship with a third?  I 
don't see how JKR could make it much clearer that Ron and Hermione are 
friends in their own right.  They spend too much time voluntarily in 
one another's company-not just to be with Harry, but just being 
together even when he isn't around-and have too wide a variety of 
pleasant interactions for their relationship to be less than genuine 
friendship.>>>>>>>>>>>>

Eek.  I hope *I've* never implied that I don't think Ron & Hermione have a genuine friendship.  I certainly think they do.  I'm the one who's hugely offended when people try to say things like "Ron is more important to Harry than Hermione" for example.  I *know* I've said this before: if asked to name his 2 best friends, it's clear Harry would name Ron and Hermione (and I don't think he'd even agree to prioritize them).  If asked to name her 2 best friends, I'm sure Hermione would say Harry & Ron.  And obviously Ron would name Harry & Hermione.  I don't think there are any hierarchies of any sort within the Trio.  

Do you have another list of H/H interactions, Amy?  What about Ha/R interactions?  I've always wanted to go back through the books for things like this (and positive Percy moments -- <g>), but never seem to have time.  Thanks for a great list!

Penny






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