[[HPforGrownups] Re: Cheese... Ron.-bashing Hermione... Harry...]

[serenadust]

No: HPFGUIDX 38766

Whew, too many posts, not enough time to address all of them.

I said:
> > So you're saying that Hermione continues the friendship with Ron 
> > because if she ended it she'd see less of Harry and Ginny? Do 
you 
> > really think she *doesn't* like Ron, but puts up with him to 
hang 
> > around with his best friend and sister?  I have a much higher 
> > opinion of her than to think she'd be that pathetic, even if it 
> > meant that her time with H & G would be reduced as a result.  
She 
> > always gets over the arguments with Ron, why can't we?


Heidi writes: 
> I haven't seen any indication that we're not getting over it, and 
I don't
> really understand what you mean in that argument at all.

What I mean is, that by being more outraged by Ron's behavior than 
Hermione herself is, to me an indication that we're not all "over 
it" :--).

Heidi continued:
 And I do think that
> she likes Ron, but you have completely misconstrued what I was 
saying here.
> Sometimes, there are people in your life that you like for various 
reasons,
> but a deep or intense friendship with them is impossible simply 
because on
> certain things, you rub each other the wrong way, or you disagree 
too much. Or
> a million other reasons. I don't think it's pathetic at all to be 
part of
> collective friendships, where each one affects the other - and I 
think
> Hermione is smart enough to be aware of that, such that she gets 
over certain
> of her arguments with Ron that get personal or the insults he 
throws. She gets
> over the one in PS/SS, even though she spends the 
afternoon/evening crying in
> the girls' bathroom, but that (I recognize) predates their 
friendship by quite
> a few hours. And she gets over other ones as well - and that's 
perfectly
> sensible and reasonable to do with people you're friends with. 
However, it's
> not necessarily a predeterminor for a fine romance.


Er, I don't think I've been arguing for any romance, fine or 
otherwise.  That's JKR's job as far as I'm concerned. I have no 
problem with the notion of collective friendships.  My point is that 
for the whole of Hermione's time at Hogwarts, she has only the 2 
boys as friends, and in spite of their bickering, she seems to have 
a deep and ongoing friendship with Ron, rather than one of 
convenience.  I would, however, love to see her develop a close 
friendship with another girl, while maintaining her place in the 
trio. I really think she needs the kind of friendship and 
understanding she'll never get from Harry or Ron, and that she's 
overdue in that area.  I do get the impression that this is what's 
developing with Ginny, and I hope it continues for Hermione's sake.

Heidi again:
 But in balance, the things she encourages the boys to do are
> more often good and positive things, than not. 


That's true but it still doesn't entitle her to nag them. I suspect 
that they like her in spite of this tendency, rather than because of 
it.


<Heidi proposed a romantic connection between Malfoy and Hermione>
 
> Jo replied:
> > Sorry but, ROFL.  As I remember P&P (read several times over the 
> > years), Mr. Darcy doesn't ever wish Miss Bennet DEAD.  While 
there 
> > were major misunderstandings between these two characters, there 
are 
> > none between Hermione and Malfoy.  She LOATHES him, and with 
very 
> > good reason.  Unless she "grows up' to be downright stupid, I 
can't 
> > see her suddenly becoming attracted to someone who regards her 
as 
> > being deserving of extermination because of her bloodline. 
That's 
> > just 
> > a bridge too far, for me.


Heidi: 
> Right. And the idea that Ron's pet would turn out to be a servant 
of the
> wizard who killed Harry's parents would've been a bridge too far 
in Book 1. Or
> on page 200 of Book 3, for that matter. 

I think that that comparison doesn't apply here.  Scabbers 
er..personality/character isn't really quite as developed as 
Hermione and Draco's are, is it?  Sure, I'm always really surprised 
when a pet rat turns out to be an evil wizard <g>, but I can't say 
that JKR really did a major personality transplant to make this 
plausable.

I wrote:
> > I'm fascinated by the widely divergent interpretations of canon 
on 
> > this list, although I worry that sometimes fanon is making the 
water 
> > very muddy.

Heidi: 
> Now I am completely unsure what you're saying. Are you trying to 
suggest that
> because in August, 2000, I reread GoF and then the rest of the 
Trilogy
> thinking about it from Hermione's perspective and then from 
Draco's, with a
> goal in mind of writing a fanfic about a friendship between the 
two of them,
> that I have corrupted myself? 

Not at all.  I'm fascinated that it would occur to you to do that, 
because I have found nothing to hang that notion on in my reading of 
any of the books.

Heidi:
> Or are you saying that because I've created an argument that I 
have put into
> "dialogue" form through fanfic, that I am making waters very muddy 
for myself?
> Would it be easier to make this argument credible in your eyes if 
I had only
> argued it onlist? Because if that's the case, then please do go 
back to my
> posts in September, 2000 and read my take on the possibilities 
between Draco
> and Hermione. That predates the first chapter of my fanfic by 
almost a month,
> and might therefore have more credibility in your eyes.
> 
> Since I started reading fanfic back in the late summer of 2000, 
I've always
> had the belief that putting arguments that you make onlist into 
fanfic form
> may help one personally suss out one's arguments with more 
clarity. Isn't that
> a good thing?
> 

I don't know.  It's an interesting question, but my problem with 
using fanfic in this way is that we are no longer dealing 
exclusively with Rowlings characters.  I don't read fanfic any more 
because I found even the best of them unsatisfying (plots contrived, 
and characters very OC), and I concluded that only reading  
the "real" stuff was satisfying to me (even if we have to wait a 
very long time for it).  I don't mean to insult your work (or anyone 
else's), since I don't think I ever got to read it.
I think that any time people use fanfic examples to support their 
opinions of canon, they are mixing apples and oranges.  They are 
taking characters that share the same names as JKR's, making them do 
and say things that JKR has never had them do, and then 
extrapolating arguments from this new, artificial construct.
Am I the only one bothered by this?

Jo S., not intending to step on toes, but fearing she has anyway
> 
> 
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