From HPforGrownups - Draco as Darcy? (Was: Re: FF: Speculation - a matter of perspective)]

[heidit at netbox.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 38804

If anyone wants to get into a more extensive discussion of Pride & Prejudice
we should move that over to OT Chatter...

"marinafrants" <rusalka at ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> I know this wasn't the main focus of Heidi's post, but it just 
> jumped out at me and made me curious.  While I don't expect any 
> Draco redemption in later books, I'm not going to flatly rule out 
> the possibility, either.  But I don't see how it would parallel 
> Pride and Prejudice.
> 
> Darcy liked Elizabeth very early on, almost immediately after 
> meeting her, and even before he liked her the sum total of his 
> hostility amounted to not wishing to dance with her.  

First, a few formative groundrules - including the obvious differences. 

Darcy is in his late 20s, a gentleman whose father has died at least five
years before the novel begins. Draco is, when we last see him, fourteen years
old and still quite under his father's (eye/control/thumb/financial
grip/demands) (choose whichever one you feel most appropriate).  Draco's
father is abusive, at least to the servants (slaves, if you prefer Hermione's
term) and many see him as also having been at least emotionally abusive to his
son. 

Draco is, as I've said elsewhere, fourteen! And the only time he said he
wished Hermione dead was when he was *twelve*. He didn't say it as a "wish"
think in the end of GoF, he was just "predicting" what he saw to be the likely
consequence of Voldemort's return. And he was actually accurate in his
supposition - those who are muggles and muggle-lovers are actually most at
risk now. 

And while you may dismiss Darcy's original reaction to Elizabeth as mere
dislike, and note that he liked her not long after meeting her, even when he
first proposed, he said that such a marriage - her connections and family -
were a significant impediment to a marriage. "His sense of her inferiority --
of its being a degradation..." to wed her, were things that he discussed while
*proposing*. So I don't think it's fair to even describe his feelings toward
her as blooming with love and sunshine when he proposes, much less at any time
before. Indeed, he says about Elizabeth and the other women at the assembly,
"and there is not another woman in the room whom it would not be a punishment
to me to stand up with."

Punishment to stand up with? Sounds much closer to at least despairing of and
hoping to never come in contact with than anything else, doesn't it? Darcy is
clever/bright (we're given the impression that Draco isn't a complete loser in
academia as his name isn't mentioned with Crabbe & Goyle  in the list by Harry
& Ron at the end of PS/SS, and it is implied in CoS that only Hermione beat
him in all his classes). Darcy is also "haughty, reserved, and fastidious, and
his manners, though well bred, were not inviting. . . . Darcy was continually
giving offense."

Also, it's common currency these days to have a few things established by
teenage boys (especially the vaguely immature ones like Draco) including the
fact that "I could kill her" or "I wish she was dead" doesn't necessarily mean
that one actually *wants* to kill someone. It's almost a colloquialism that
shows extreme dislike at the time, but no actual intent to murder. He's never
actually hurt her, other than the time that he makes her teeth grow, but that
curse was flung at Harry, not Hermione, and Harry's the one who inadvertently
deflected it onto her. IN fact, arguments have been made that at the World
Cup, he's trying to warn her away - at a minimum, he doesn't call the
attentions of the Death Eaters to her, even though he had the opportunity.
Perhaps he didn't have the intent or the motive?

I am not a big fan of "zero tolerance" in schools, under which someone who
says something like "I wish she were dead" would be considered as making an
actual threat, although I recognize that some people might think that any such
words should be considered as such. 

It really all comes back to the question of whether you think that JKR may not
leave Draco's character flat out on the road to being an Evil Death Eater from
his first appearance to his last (IMHO, what a *dead dull* thing to do!). In a
series that's all about choices,. and how each person has to make them for
themselves, it just feels like a tremendous cop-out for her to say that as
Draco was born into the Malfoy family, and grew up strongly (perhaps almost
exclusively until he was 11) influenced by Lucius Malfoy (who is possibly the
*most* evil character in the books), he has no way to go but on the road to
evil. He hasn't really had much opportunity to see things in any other way
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/34012) while at Hogwarts,
and I don't think he gets much encouragement at home to explore different
points of view. 

To paraphrase from Post 34026, thinking and feeling are very different from
acting and doing. Let's look at Cedric's death from Harry's perspective - he's
broken up about it, he's miserable and sick and in Very Bad Shape from
watching it and being powerless to stop it. From a Slyther's perspective, he's
that Gryffindor brat who somehow lied or cheated his way into the tournament,
got help from a professor all the way through even though it was against the
rules, then managed to get Cedric killed during the final task - and worst of
all, he's never eve CRIED about it. 

See the difference?

sariadotia at aol.com wrote:
> 
> Ok, I honestly do not understand why so many people
> even consider this as a 
> possible future relationship.  

Um, because nothing has happened to date to rule it out? Because JKR's sowed
the seeds for a redemption for Draco, which would be a necessary precursor to
such a thing happening?

> His attitude 
> towards her is not along the lines of adolescent
> teasing, like Hermione and 
> Ron.  Draco is insults are personal, and harsh.  He
> constantly refers to her 
> as 'Mudblood'.  Which is supposedly a repulsive
> term, and this shows even a 
> lower level of disrespect since it avoids using her
> own name.  How degrading.

His insults to Ron are actually a lot more personal and generally harsher -
his insults to Hermione generally don't seem personal to her, the way his
insults to Ron are completely personal - they're more to the "classification"
of witch she is (i.e. Muggleborn). And he does call her Granger, but then
again, she calls him Malfoy. And in one of the schoolbooks, Harry calls Ron
"Weasley" once - you can't really read anything into that.

And yes, he *does not like her* but I think he'd probably say that he hates
her because she's better at classes than he is - in other words, jealousy,
pure and simple. 

> And in POA Malfoy says... "I'm quite surprised the
> mudbloods haven't all 
> packed their bags by now... Bet you five Galleons
> the next one dies. Pity it 
> wasn't Granger..."
> And you still think that there is a chance for a
> romantic relationship here? 
> I don't even see room for a civilized
> relationship...

It's actually CoS - he's TWELVE or thirteen at the most. Should everyone be
judged in perpetuity for the way they were at twelve? A bit unfair, don't you
think?

> Not to mention that Malfoy has a very high opinion
> of his father 

I agree completely! Most kids do until they hit the teen rebellion stage,
which he just has not gotten to yet, it seems.

> How do you think 
> his family would react to his DATING Hermione!?  He
> would be disowned as far 
> as I can tell... and seeing how his family and his
> wizard heritage is one of 
> the things Malfoy most highly values about
> himself.... I don't see him giving 
> it all up.

He'd be just as likely to be disowned for refusing the Dark Mark, if he
chooses to do so. Or for not killing Harry at some random future point. Or for
marrying anyone his parents (or at least Lucius) does not approve of. It's a
lot to give up, I agree - money is a nice thing to have - but it's also very
nice not to have to kill people because your father says so. That, IMHO, is
probably what it's going to come down to for Draco, and he's either going to
be able to do it, or he's not. JKR's given absolutely no definitive
determination, so fr, which it'll be.

And briefly...
> and hopefully in
> the future people will 
> stick to relationships that could actually happen!
Why? Isn't predicting and guessing half the fun of debating the books? Why
limit your creativity like that? And you know, some of us actually really do
think that this is a relationship that could actually happen. It would be
fascinating!

Jo wrote:
> I was thinking that it was certainly 
> unlikely that many readers (of canon), would consider this a 
> plausable possibility, without having been influenced by any of a 
> number of fanfics where both Draco and Hermione have had their 
> personalities altered in a way that would make this possible.  Of 
> course, IMO, readers of said fanfics would have to have replaced 
> canon Draco and Hermione with fanon characters bearing the same 
> names, to be able to buy into the notion.  
Well, I know a few listies here who've been able to see that (a) Draco might
not become evil, and (b) if he's not evil, he might be a good match for
Hermione... just from reading posts on this Group and discussing the
characters. Clearly, you recognize (see below) that I came up with the theory
independent of what I garner from reading fanfics. I have no idea why you are
so scornful of fanfics, and clearly I am never going to be able to convince
you that they are a pleasent diversion, a way to explore the books in a medium
different from straight debate or the Theory Bay roleplaying that goes on here
on this list -but it's no less valid a medium of intellectual discource.
(http://zendom.diaryland.com/020404_18.html)

> However, you apparently 
> found a very original way to somehow see this yourself in books 1 
> through 4.  I just don't see how you were able to do this without 
> ignoring 4 volumes of careful character development by JKR.  I guess 
> I'm just too literal-minded a reader to manage this leap.

I actually think I am a literal-minded reader, just one who reads between the
lines. I've seen the concept of "subtext" dissed in many other places as
regards the character and plot developments in the books, but JKR's given
subtextual hints throughout the books, and from one book to another, of
important characters (Arabella Figg, for one) and characterisations (Snape,
for another) that we haven't yet fully seen. Or look at the whole thread going
on right now about Neville. I don't think that being a thoughtful reader, as I
am, precludes also being literal-minded about the books - they can happily
co-exist.


> Draco has 
> known Hermione for four years, and still thinks of her as a filthy 
> Mudblood who deserves to be killed for her inferior birth.  
No, he thinks she's a Mudblood who is likely to be killed for her inferior
birth (and also possibly because she is currently dating that POtter creep
(why wouldn't he believe the Skeeter article?). And in Book 1, all he says is
that he doesn't think that muggleborn witches & wizards should be taught magic
at Hogwarts. There'a  big difference between this and that. 


> Now that I think of it, I'm not sure what the literary precedent for 
> a Draco/Hermione romance would be.  I know that *villain redeemed by 
> love* is a classic trope, but the only examples I can think of off 
> the top of my head come from soap operas and cheap romance novels.  
> I'm sure there are more "respectable" sources out there, I'm just 
> blanking on them.  I really don't think Pride and Prejudice is it, 
> though.

Would you prefer The Taming of the Shrew? Jane Eyre, where reckless Mr
Rochester just forgets to tell Jane that he's still married and she still
lives in the same house? Perhaps it's just that I see Draco as the foil and
not the villain that I don't really find it easy to make such parallels either
- he hasn't actually *done* anything evil, so I find it hard to parallel him
to characters who have done evil things. It just doesn't fit. 

When I say, as I have done, that there is a possibility of a romantic
relationship between Draco and Hermione, I am not speaking of something in
Book 5, or even in much of Book 7 - I do think, though, that JKR has created,
in Draco, a character who can overcome his pride *and* his prejudice. The
critical descriptions of Darcy throughout the book resonate in the
descriptions of Draco - family pride, the belief that others are not good
enough to associate with, the tendency to pass judgments about people and
situations without looking too closely - all those things apply to both Darcy
and Draco. And nobody has even bothered to criticise the very obvious
parallels in personality between Elizabeth and Hermione - they are both
cynical and idealistic at the same time. If JKR wanted to create a resonance
between P&P and a relationship in her books, she could easily and reasonably
do so.

heidi tandy


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