WW versus MW

[Melody]

No: HPFGUIDX 46031

Pip, rocking on her heels, had that certain *glint* in her eye.  She
had painted Melody into a hard corner.  Seems Mel has underestimated
Pip's grasp of the sanctified writings of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

>From a desire for the union of the MW and WW, Pip takes the position
that they can and should live in harmony for the better of both
civilizations.  Secrecy, while needed in some situations for the
safety of all persons involved ;) , is not necessary in this case.


Pip quotes:
> Mark 7:27-29
> "Let us first feed the children [i.e. Jewish people]. It isn't right
> to take the children's food and throw it to the dogs."
> "Sir," the woman answered "even the dogs under the table eat the
> children's leftovers!"
> And Jesus answered "Because of that answer, go back home, where you
> will find your daughter cured."

Pip then wrote:
> So, if the muggles are the dogs, are they getting the leftovers? Is
> there any sign of it? Or are the wizards keeping all their magic for
> themselves?

Hmmm, only other Bible passage I have found that include dogs and pigs
(our muggles) is the one where a legion of demons are cast into a herd
of pigs...but that really has nothing to do with this discussion.

After I posted before, I thought about how harsh I was being to the
muggles.  Pigs and dogs are, after all, thought to be the lowest and
unclean of all the animals by the Jewish people who the parables are
intended.  But with this new verse, I think the comparison is quite
proper.  Dogs, in this case, are the non-Jewish populace.  The exact
population that the Jews feel more "superior" than.  To say that these
"dogs" deserve even the little "scraps" left over from the excessive
giving on the Jews, Jesus was blessing the inclusion of the non-Jewish
populace...well, at least the "believing" portion.

Since we are using this verse and I currently can't find a counter, I
want to work within it.  The scraps weren't given upon first request.
 It took much persuasion and finally a bit of a quick tongue to get
those scraps.

In Matthew 15:22-28, a short pre-story to the previous verses is given:
A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord,
Son of David, have mercy on me!  My daughter is suffering terribly
from demon-possession."
Jesus did not answer a word.  So his disciples came to him and urged
him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."
He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
The woman came and knelt before him.  "Lord, help me!" she said.
<<insert previous verses quoted by Pip>>

Now, if the woman did not persist and prove her faith, then Jesus had
no intent to shared those scraps.  After all, the bread is to feed the
children not dogs...though I am glad there is enough "bread" for the
non-Jewish dogs as well.  :)

So, to tie this in, some Muggles do know that the WW exists, but they
do not push for the WW to be accepted into the MW.  They can benefit
from its "scraps" if they so wish and are believers, or rather -
supporters, of magic.  Lily turned teacups into rats for her family.
The MW government is on speaking terms with the WW.  Hermione talked
to her parents about shrinking her teeth.  Those in the know and on
good terms can benefit, but do not say anything.  Is there an
agreement they signed saying that they will never talk about the WW
with strangers?


Pip wrote:
>  Is there any use of magic on muggles in the books so far that is
> not purely concerned with Wizards either protecting the secret of
> their existence, or attacking muggles in some way? Dumbledore
> remarks that Frank Bryce's disappearance is considered unimportant
> by the Ministry, because he is a Muggle. Do we see any example of
> wizards *helping* muggles?

Hmmm, only time I find is when Arthur helping the Dursleys clean their
living room area after the Floo powder incident and that really is
because it was his fault.  Well, he also shrank Dudley's tongue, but
that too was to fix his son's prank.  Both incidences did protect the
WW secrecy, but frankly, Arthur did not have to help.  He did it
because he was nice and does want to help them.

Muggles can also use the owls to post.  Hedwig brings Harry his
Christmas gifts from the Dursleys.  Granted this is not magic, but it
is an incident where the WW and MW blend when a member of the MW knows
of their existence.

As for Frank Bryce, the WW is not concerned not because he is a dead
*muggle*, but because they do not see the parallel or even possibility
that he could be a dead muggle murdered *by a wizard*.  To the WW
government, Voldemort is gone and dead as evident by Fudge's attitude
at the end of GoF.  Since Voldemort is gone, in their eyes, Frank
could of only died because of causes not related to the WW.  Only
because Dumbledore knows that Voldemort is still a threat does he keep
a watch on old Frank Bryce and the Riddle manor.

But there is no time where a witch goes and helps a woman cook her
dinner.  No wizard there to freeze a mugger on the street.  When a
dementor comes around a muggle, they do not have the defenses a wizard
can have even though the dementor has the same effect.  It doesn't
seem fair.  I agree.  But since we do know that not all in the WW are
selfish, it seems to me that there must be a bigger reason why they
truly believe that muggles do not *need* the benefits of their powers.
If a muggle did *need* magic, then I am sure the likes of Dumbledore
would share his gift.  Yet, he does not work to join the two worlds.
He, above all wizards, would see the advantages and disadvantages of
combining the worlds, yet we have no evidence that he is working to
join the worlds or "out" the WW.


Pip states:
> The WW, on the other hand, seems to want to regard the muggles as
> children. Children that will never grow up. They, on the other hand
> regard themselves as the superior adults, despite the fact that
> other muggle groups who have been regarded with fear, hatred and
> prejudice have fought back against the people who hold such views,
> *not* run away.

Good point.  The saying "In a blind world, the one-eyed man is king."
comes to mind.  If the WW has such a tremendous gift compared to the
MW, who don't even have a comparable one, they are superior.  Maybe
not in mind and petty jealousies, but the muggles are blind
comparably.  Why don't the wizards take over the world?  They have the
advantage, don't they?  As you wisely pointed out, simple muggles have
managed to change the minds of other muggles.  They held their ground
and changed the world.  Why are the wizards so afraid of unity?  What
is keeping them from joining with these "children"?

Hmmm, I have no answer.  It does sound a bit elitist.  Like a
neighborhood that wants only those around that understand their views
and problems.  But is that prejudice or is it wanting to relate to
others like themselves?  If they were to join the MW, I guess they
could still do that but just in their own cities kind of like the Amish.

But if the WW lived like the Amish, connected yet separate, what would
keep those who do not have magical abilities from wandering in and
demanding magic solutions.  People leave the Amish alone because they
are just like us...just have different views.  The WW is not an
ideology.  They have something we don't.  They *are* different, and
there is *nothing* we can do to be like them.

I still say the reason why the worlds are kept separate and in the
dark is for the WW protection.  The MW would overwhelm them with
requests and desires.  Sure it would be kind if the worlds united, but
it is a little too ideal to think the muggles would just stare and
that is all.  Be content to go back to their little lives knowing
magic does exist and they will never have those powers nor will they
ever have access to it.

The prejudice and feelings of superiourity are quite natural.  Try and
find a pocket of people anywhere that do not fall prey to vanity and
ignorance.  Yes, though the ignorance could be helped.  It is a long
process, but one that could and should be taken.  If anything, at
least within the WW if not in a joined one.


Pip wrote:
> And as Pippin has pointed out; Magic is not the most important thing
> in life. Love, and its power, is far more potent. In that most
> important area, Muggle and Wizard are equal.

How can I possibly argue that Love is not as important as Magic?  Love
is like oxygen.  Love, lifts us up where we belong.  All we need is
love.  **Sheepishly smiles**  Sorry, I'm watching Moulin Rouge right
now.  *Sigh*, Ewan is so dreamy.  :)

Yes, the MW and WW are united under the bonds of love.  They are also
united under the bonds of just plan humanity.  Magic is a power and
that is all.  As proven in PS/SS, love is stronger than Power.  So is
love to unite the worlds?  I don't see where Harry has ever loved the
Muggle world or has been treated well in it.  What reason does he have
to unite them?  He is completed only in the WW.


I originally wrote:
> > So the Wizard World is at a passing. Let the whole world know they
> > exist and deal with the whole world of built up prejudice, fear,
> > and scientific curiosity, or stay hidden protecting their
> > existence living in relative peace and semi-symbiotic harmony.

Pip stated:
> Are they living in relative peace? Grindlewald, Voldemort ? if
> they've withdrawn from the Muggle World for self-protection, they
> seem to be as good as any Muggle at destroying themselves. Harmony?
> Slytherin versus Gryffindor, Durmstrang versus Hogwarts, a
> recognition that they would have died out if they'd not married
> Muggles while simultaneously despising the Muggles and mudbloods
> who've saved them.

Actually, I meant the relationship between MW and WW.  Between those
worlds there is relative peace and semi-symbiotic harmony.  We see no
problems between the worlds other than shared fear and wonderment.
Both governments are on speaking terms and do listen to the others
advice (well at least on the MW side).  Independently, both worlds
have their inner problems.  WW-Grindlewald.  MW-Hitler.  But mostly,
they are living in harmony.


Melody