[HPforGrownups] Re: TBAY - Snape the Killer

[wynnde1 at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 46943

Wendy picks up her fresh drink and moves away from the bar, going to sit in 
one of the unoccupied booths for a minute. She's feeling a bit overwhelmed, 
and actually, rather disturbed about how to possibly respond to everything 
Eileen has said while keeping it a TBAY response. Then, an idea hits her. She 
can fall back on a tried-and-true literary device . . . the FLASHBACK! That 
way she can skip around as much as she likes! Of course it can be dreadful 
when improperly used, but seeing as though she's got little to lose, she 
decides to go for it. Smiling, she leans back into the soft cushions of of 
the bench (didn't red leatherette go out of fashion about twenty years ago?), 
and sips her brandy. Feeling more relaxed, she thinks back over the 
conversation of the past hour . . .
> 
> "Wendy, we haven't had a good Snape discussion for just ages," Eileen said, 
> grinning. "And now Cindy has got it going again, I'm in seventh heaven. You 
> see, Severus Snape is one of my favourite characters. Along with Remus 
> Lupin, of
> course." 
> 

Wendy's eyes light up. "Severus *and* Remus, you say? Oh, Eileen, I think you 
and I are going to get along just *fine*. They're my favourites, too. And did 
you *really* torture your dolls, like Elkins said? I never did when I was 
young, but that's only because I hated dolls too much to own one! Hmnh. But I 
could have kidnapped my sister's Barbies and tortured them . . . if only I'd 
thought of that at the time. But, oh well . . . 

"But, let's get back to this Snape as Killer thing. I still don't see 
Dumbledore hiring an ex-sadist/rapist/torturer/murderer to teach the kiddies 
at Hogwarts. 

> "Why not?" said Eileen. "I wouldn't. But Dumbledore... Dumbledore
> trusts where others wouldn't, to quote Sirius from memory    . . . <snip 
> great examples of all the things Sirius was wrong about in Padfoot Returns> 
> So, anyway, Dumbledore has decided that Severus Snape has repented, and in 
> his vision of the world, where choice trumps all, I don't see why he would 
> object to
> having a repentant murderer on the staff, if he was absolutely certain
> he had repented. And we do know that Dumbledore is certain. <snip> 
> Dumbledore works in mysterious ways."

"Hmnh, Wendy said. You could be right about this. I don't claim to understand 
the mind of Albus Dumbledore at all. Actually, I tend to think that his 
judgement is not NEARLY as good as many seem to think. I have some real 
issues with some of the things he's done. Maybe we just don't understand 
enough yet about the "Prank" and its seeming lack of repercussions. And then 
there's that extremely dodgy point-giving episode after Harry "saved" the 
Philosopher's Stone. But at this point I don't agree with some of the 
decisions he's made. However, I don't think I'll get into all that just now. 
I need to think it through a bit more thorougly before I'm ready to talk 
about good and evil. Or the lack thereof." Wendy grinned a bit wickedly. This 
is obviously a subject very near and dear to her heart.

Fog appears from nowhere, obscuring the scene for just a moment. Then, it 
clears and we find that we've moved further ahead in the conversation . . . 

Wendy mentioned that Snape had not yet done anything canonically evil, to 
which Eileen replied, 

> "I myself think Rowling has something nasty up her 
> sleeve there, something that is going to make Harry blanche."

"You could be right." Then Wendy shook her head, "But isn't the fact that 
Snape was a Death Eater enough to make Harry blanche? Do you really need gore 
and blood and murder and death on Snape's hands?"

Eileen smiles, absentmindedly stroking the feathered thing which is wound 
around her neck. "Erm," Wendy says quickly, "maybe you do. By the way, where 
did you get that thing? It's really quite lovely, in a disturbing sort of 
way. I was thinking I might be in the market for one soon.

"But back to Snape - I'm still not convinced that he was anything but a 
misguided youth. I went back (er, using my Time Turner, I suppose?) and read 
the posts you recommended. They were absolutely FANTASTIC, and gave me lots 
to think about, but I'm still not ready to accept Killer Snape. Not yet. I 
agree that Snape in all likelihood came from a Dark Arts family. But that 
doesn't mean he himself would turn out evil, right? After all, it's about our 
CHOICES in this series. Don't we keep getting pounded in the head with *that* 
often enough? So Snape knows some curses, and makes enemies with some of the 
Gryffindors. And, of course, as we hear everything from Harry's PoV, we're 
meant to believe that Snape was the cause of all the animosity (just like 
Draco causes all the trouble for Harry and Co.). But it's *not that simple*. 
Oh, I know what I'm about to say will be nothing that hasn't been discussed 
before. But when I try and reconcile what is actually in canon with the 
various backstories I can imagine, I still don't get an EvilDeathEater!Snape. 
I don't believe the door is closed to EvilDeathEater!Snape, but it's not 
obvious to me, by any means.

Perhaps what I should do is go through and categorically list all the 
information we have about the rivalries between Slytherin and Gryffindor 
students, both in the present, and during the days when the Marauders were 
terrorising the Hogwarts' student population. (Oh, did I say terrorising? 
Oops). Yes, that sounds like a good idea. But until I get around to that (if 
I *ever* get around to it), I think I can safely say that, while Draco 
usually seems to start the verbal arguments, it is nearly always Ron who gets 
physically violent first. (So who has got the "visceral instincts" in this 
scenario? <g>). Are we meant to believe that Ron is evil because he thinks 
it's perfectly acceptable to try and pound Draco to a pulp everytime he says 
something unpleasant? I don't believe Ron is evil. But, I'm also not 
convinced that Draco is evil. Not necessarily. My real point here is that it 
doesn't really matter who starts the fights - there is a rivalry between 
these kids that goes *both* ways. The Gryffindors are not an innocent party 
being continually injured by the evil Slytherins. Even if this is how it is 
portrayed, this is because we see things through Harry's eyes. And how many 
teenagers are willing to take this sort of responsibility for their actions 
(or see the responsibility carried by their friends)? Heck, my sister-in-law 
and I *hate* each other. And I can easily make a very compelling argument 
that she's just a stroppy nightmare and I've done nothing to provoke her 
ever, but I know that's not true. Even if she has started things at times, I 
chose to "finish" them, and I've started a few of my own, as well. No injured 
party here, just two people who don't like one another.

"And of course there is a parallel between Harry, etc., and the children of 
the previous generation. And what do know about that rivalry? Sirius telling 
Harry that Severus knew lots of curses. And Dumbledore telling us that there 
was a rivalry between James and Severus which was similar to the one shared 
by Harry and Draco. And the "Prank" seems to illustrate a dynamic alarmingly 
similar to the one happening between Draco and Ron. Snape goes around poking 
his nose in things and trying to get them expelled. Certainly understandable 
that the Gryffs wouldn't like him. Then Sirius excalates things to a whole 
new level by setting up a situation where Severus could DIE!

"In both cases, I think it's actually the actions of the Gryffindors (Ron and 
Sirius) which are more reprehensible. Name calling is one thing, physical 
violence is entirely another. In my not so humble opinion. Plus they never 
even seem to think that anything they've done is *wrong*. Oh, I don't expect 
it of Ron. He's not actually tried to kill anyone, after all, and Draco is a 
miserable git. That doesn't give Ron the excuse to become violent, but he's 
young. Hopefully he will learn this in time. (Hmnh. I can think of a few 
government leaders whom I wish would learn this lesson, as well). But I do 
expect it of Sirius. He's an adult, and should realise that what he did was 
heinously wrong. But he still sticks to his, "Snape deserved it" story. Which 
is a load of crap, anyway you look at it. And I'm simply unable to respect 
Sirius because of it. Which is a shame, really, because he's actually Dead 
Sexy. Now that he's cleaned up a bit, anyway." Wendy shrugged, then took a 
deep breath, realising that she'd gone into a bit of a rant. She smiled 
suddenly, a smile intended to charm anyone she may have happened to offend.

Again, the strange - and somewhat annoying - fog appears. When the room comes 
back into focus, Wendy's meandering train of thought has once again taken a 
rather awkward leap into the future. This flashback thing isn't as easy as it 
looks!

> Wendy and Eileen spoke a bit about good and evil . . . 


> "I always sort of thought that this was the point JKR was making -
> Snape isn't meant to prove that evil is complicated, but that *good* is 
> complicated, too. We shouldn't assume someone is evil just because they 
> aren't nice or pretty or use proper hygiene."
>  
> "Absolutely, Wendy," says Eileen. "I do think that's the first point
> to be made about Snape. The PS/SS point."
> 

Wendy grins a bit maliciously. "Oh, Eileen, I don't know about this. Snape is 
the poster child for 'good is complicated' in the first book, but he later 
becomes the 'evil is complicated' mascot later in the series? Do you really 
think you can have it both ways?"

Then, Eileen, with some help from Elkins, shared with Wendy the "murderers 
play Bach" discussion, which did indeed fit exactly with what Wendy had been 
trying to say." Wendy then shared her rather unsavoury backstory for Snape, 
at which point Eileen reminded her of the lovely "Perversion in the 
Graveyard" discussion which had taken place a couple of months earlier. Ooh. 
She had enjoyed that one, especially since it means there is a possibility 
that some of the more horrible things that have been theorised might actually 
be written into the stories in such as way as to not be noticed by people who 
didn't read them with the correct, erm, filters. 

The two talked about Snape's past, and Wendy suggested that teenage Snape 
might not have been able to defend himself against the sexual attentions of 
Voldemort. Eileen wisely pointed out, "No,

>  But don't we face that question 
> however we take our Snape?Whether Voldemort was sexually preying on Snape 
> or not, he was preying on Snape. And Avery. And Rosier. And Wilkes. And Mr. 
> Lestrange. And even Mrs. Lestrange of the shining hair, the heavy-lidded 
> eyes, and the fanatical spotlight-hogging. I don't see how this would make 
> Snape less a killer, less a DE."

 "Ah," nodded Wendy. "Excellent point. And it does make 
SexuallyExploitedTeenage!Snape unnecessary (even if Perversion in the 
Graveyard makes it more possible). However, *I* don't see how it makes him 
any *more* a killer or DE. Yes, he was susceptible to whatever line Voldemort 
was handing out, and I do believe that he joined the Death Eaters willingly, 
eyes at least half-open (a point which is sort of part of the Georgian 
theory, if I'm reading it correctly). But it still doesn't rule out Snape not 
really understanding what he was getting into - let's see, someone said it 
really well . . . oh, I'll never find the reference now, but I think it was 
Marina who said something about it all being fine and dandy until the first 
time Voldemort says, "Here, go torture this baby." Argh. So now I seem to be 
back where I started. Snape never actually did anything heinous. Guess that 
means I'm not likely to be on Avery's list of favourite people anytime soon, 
either."

Around this time, Wendy noticed that Eileen had been drinking steadily 
throughout the evening, and commented about it : 

> "You're sure drinking a lot 
> of brandy."  
> 
> "Yes, do you know what the significance of brandy is? You see, TBAY
> brandy is different than real world brandy. Cindy puts something in it
> that turns the most staid, sycophantish, and bleeding heart theorizers
> into bloodythirsty fanatics. FEATHERBOAS, we call ourselves. (Foaming
> Enthusiasts of Ambush, Torture, and Hostility, Embracing Really
> Bloodthirsty Operations and Savagery.) Cindy founded the organization.
> The point is I want blood on Snape's hands. You said earlier that you
> could *perhaps* be converted. So, I'll give it a shot. Elkins!"
> 
Wendy motioned to George to bring her another drink. Settling into her chair, 
she found herself feeling a bit unnerved, and something else . . . what is 
it? Excited. Yes, that's it. Excited. She's been happy all this time with her 
beloved Potion's Master the way he is, but is it possible, just possible that 
she's misjudged him - and has been believing he's someone he's not? And there 
is something rather . . . intoxicating about the thought of Snape not being 
misled, guilt-ridden, and absent of all self-esteem because he hates himself 
for things he didn't even *do*, as Wendy has always imagined him. Maybe this 
*other* Snape, this Killer Snape is actually stronger, more powerful. Hmnh. 
Sexier, even? 

She nodded at Eileen, "Okay. I'm ready to hear it. Do your worst."

> At Eileen's request, Elkins lifted up her head wearily and began quoting. <
> snip some rather compelling evidence for Snape's taste for physical 
> violence When she'd finished, Eileen looked at Wendy. "You can choose, 
> Wendy, between sadist
> and non-sadist Snape. I like the first because it makes him so much more 
> interesting, so compelling. To go back to what Elkins said in the first 
> place, his instincts go all one way, and his behaviour go the other. Now, 
> that's heroism. That's courage. That's my Severus Snape!"
> 

> "Well, I'm still not convinced," said Wendy, thoughtfully, "that he was ever 
> THAT bad in the first place."
> 

Eileen and Elkins then shared with Wendy the mysteries of the Credo for 
George. Using her time turner (okay, I know this is hokey, but I can't get 
this post chronological without it!), Wendy went back two hours and spendt 
them browsing the huge and fascinating tome that begins with Message > 35530.

When Wendy returned, Eileen could sense a tentativeness on Wendy's part. Is 
it possible this wretched girl is *still* not convinced? Eyes blazing, Eileen 
began, 

"> If we say Snape was never as bad as the rest of them, we lose the 
> power of his character. The idea that yes, you can be ever-so-evil and 
> then... It's all about... It's all about Redemption!" <glaring down at 
> Cindy> "And otherwise, otherwise, we have a universe where Snape only is 
> redeeemed because he always was better than the others, intrinsic worth and 
> all," 
> 
> Eileen choked up, and threw herself into Avery's arms, burying her
> head in his shoulder. He patted her head awkwardly, in best Ron Weasley
> fashion.


Wendy hurried to her side, careful not to get any closer to Avery than is 
necessary. "Eileen, Eileen," she said soothingly. "It's alright. No need to 
get so upset. It's probably just all that brandy. And really, there is 
nothing that would please me more than to attribute the highest strength and 
moral fibre and what-have-you to our beloved Potions Master. Oh, yes. I want 
Snape to be the best that he can be, whatever that means."

Eileen looked up. She seemed to have recovered quickly from her outburst. 
"So, you're converted, then? I've convinced you that Snape has to have blood 
on his hands?"

Wendy frowned. "Well, no . . . not exactly." Eileen's face fell, and Wendy 
quickly added, "I'm not unconvinced, either. It's just that, well, I guess 
I'm a bit more of a Georgian than I'd have suspected I'd be. I'm just not a 
girl to get banged around one time and POW! Conversion! I need some time to 
think about this. Take it all in. And come to my own conclusion. How does 
this fit with what I believe to be true about Snape? What things am I 
believing about Snape which might not be accurate? And, most important of all 
. . . Can I still love him if it turns out he was once truly evil?" Wendy 
looked thoughtful for a moment. "Oh, who am I kidding. Of COURSE I'll still 
love him!" Wendy grinned. "So, give me a day or two to live with this and see 
where it takes me, and I'll let you know think then, okay?"

Eileen sat back, seemingly satisfied with Wendy's answer, even if she looked 
a tiny bit disappointed.

Then, a frown passed over Wendy's face, and she looked a bit worried. 

"Is something wrong?" Eileen asked.

"Well, there is something," Wendy began tentatively. "You know how we talked 
about Perversion in the Graveyard, and LYCANTHROPE and all that?" Eileen 
nodded. "I just love LYCANTHROPE. Well, in a "oh my heavens I hope it really 
won't happen like that! because it would break my heart" sort of way. My 
favourite bit is Remus' response in the Shack when Sirius asks him to forgive 
him for thinking he was the spy. 'Not at all.' Ooooh," Wendy closed her eyes 
and shivered, obviously enjoying the sensation. "That's such a deliciously 
chilling line." Eileen nodded in enthusiastic agreement.

Wendy continued, "Well, I was just thinking how much I *love* all that, well, 
that really *dark* stuff. And Bach is my favourite composer, too. I'm 
starting to think I definitely may be rather, erm, *bent*. That's not going 
to be a *problem* around here, now, is it?"

Eileen laughed, shaking her head and giving George a meaningful look. "Oh, 
no, Wendy. Not a problem at *all*." 

"Good," Wendy sighed contentedly. "I'm starting to like it here, and I think 
I might hang around a while." Wendy crooked her finger at George, motioning 
him over. "I think I'll try a brandy, please." She turned back to Eileen, 
"And, there was that matter of an introduction to Lucius . . . "

Wendy,
(Who has lots more she wanted to write tonight - including an apology to Grey 
Wolf, whose feelings she certainly never meant to hurt - but has run out of 
time, so will try and get it all down tomorrow.)


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