Metathinking and Why Snape may know what he knows WAS Re: The Gleam Revisited

[bluesqueak]

No: HPFGUIDX 45144

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bugaloo37" <crussell at a...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "marinafrants" <rusalka at i...> wrote:
> > Marina writes:
<snip> 
> > It is not "metathinking" to claim that Harry is the hero of the 
> > books.  The books are called "Harry Potter and --"; with the 
> > exception of one chapter in GoF and one scene in PS/SS, they're 
all 
> > written from his point of view.  In every book, he's the one who 
> > takes the decisive action that saves the situation (even if all 
he 
> > can manage in GoF is a partial save).

That is not really true. In PS/SS Harry tries to save the Stone, 
true, but it is Dumbledore who rescues him " I arrived just in time 
to pull Quirrell off you - " [PS/SS p. 215, Ch. 17 UK Paperback]and 
Dumbledore who allows him to attempt saving the stone, as Harry 
recognises.

"...I reckon he had a pretty good idea we were going to try, and 
instead of stopping us, he just taught us enough to help...It's 
almost like he thought I had the right to face Voldemort if I 
could..." [PS/SS p.219, Ch. 17 UK paperback].

In CoS Harry's actions definitely save Ginny's life - but his own 
life is only saved by the actions of Fawkes (who of course, is 
*Dumbledore's* pet)- and Dumbledore has given Harry an *extremely* 
strong hint on how to get help: 
"However," said Dumbledore, speaking very slowly and clearly so that 
none of them could miss a word, "you will find that I will only 
*truly* have left this school when none here are loyal to me. You 
will also find that help will always be given at Hogwarts to those 
who ask for it."

'For a second, Harry was almost sure Dumbledore's eyes flickered 
towards the corner where he and Ron stood hidden.' [CoS, p. 195, 
Ch.14, UK paperback].

I've discussed the Shrieking Shack in PoA extensively in # 39662, 
but whether you want to read it with 'Snape the spy' in your head or 
not, Harry does *not* take decisive action until Snape pushes him 
into it (whether you want to read that as unintended on Snape's part 
is up to you).

And GoF, of course, is where Harry is moving firmly into adulthood. 
He saves himself in the graveyard. He selected his own wand (or it 
selected him) and it is the shared core with Voldemort's wand that 
helps him survive. He needs rescuing by Dumbledore, Snape and 
McGonagall later mainly because he is wounded and exhausted and in 
no shape to defend himself.

  However fascinating we might 
> > find Snape, or Dumbledore, or Sirius, or Avery, or Mrs  
> > LeStrange,the books are not about them; they're about Harry.
> >
> 

I think you are confusing the idea of 'the central character' (which 
Harry is) with 'the hero that everything revolves around' (which 
Harry is not). Currently, Harry is no more the sole person involved 
in the Voldemort wars than he would have been the sole person 
involved if JKR had decided to set the books in 1938 to 1945. 

Whatever caused Susan Bones to lose her grandparents to DE hit 
squads probably had little to do with the Potters. Dumbledore was 
fighting Voldemort before Harry was even *born* or James and Lily 
were married. As Grey Wolf points out, 

> In a good fantasy world, the universe shouldn't spin around       
> whomever happens to have his name in the cover. Because the 
> real world is not like that, and a fantasy, to be enjoyable, must 
> be a reflection of our world, with a few changes to the physical   
> rules.

Bugaloo writes:
> Thank you for the above statement concerning Harry's importance.  
<Snip>  
> As I've said before, I consider the HP series mystery novels-
> supplying small amounts of clues which of course can lead to all 
> kinds of assumptions and speculations.  But one thing that I as a 
> reader am sure of (of course, this is only my opinion) is this:  
> Harry Potter is the center of my  perception of the WW.  It is 
> through his eyes that I see everything;therefore, my opinion is 
> tainted by his.  Is there more to Snape than meets the eye?  Sure- 
> and I believe that Harry is begining to think so too.  Does 
> Dumbledore know more than he lets on?  Yes-definitely, and Harry 
> knows this too.  Is Harry for whatever reason Voldemort's primary 
> target?  Yes- and again, Harry knows this too-but just like us, he 
> does not know why.  Is it necessary for him to know why at this 
> point?  I say no-who knows what effect it might have on Harry?   
> But if we the reader knew-the series would effectively be over.  
As 
>long  as Harry is in the dark, so are we.  That's what keeps me  
> reading. This does not mean we cannot have lots of fun trying to 
> figure things out.  I guess what I am saying is this: coming up 
> with theories is fun-it's what keeps life interesting.  But please 
> do not try and tell me that Harry's importance to the series will 
> not come till the end of the series-IMO, that just doesn't make   
> any sense.

Again, this is, I think, a confusion between Harry's importance to 
the *story* that we as readers are reading, and his importance to 
the world he inhabits. 

Harry is of prime importance to the *story*. Yes, Marina, it *is* 
called 'Harry Potter and the...'. And Bugaloo is right, Harry is our 
Point of View character, and part of the fun is that we mostly only 
find out about things as Harry does. 

But that is what both Grey Wolf and I refer to as 'metathinking', 
and it is regarded as unfair because MAGIC DISHWASHER is a theory 
constructed from the internal evidence WITHIN the books and is 
concerned with the world Harry inhabits. It isn't fair to say 'well, 
the books are called 'Harry Potter', because Snape, Harry, 
Dumbledore or *anyone* in the books don't KNOW they're in a book 
called 'Harry Potter and...'. 

And by the rules of using only internal evidence, I can't use the 
book title. Or anything else concerned with the reader reading the 
text. I can only use the text, itself, and support my arguments and 
counter arguments from within the text. I'm allowed to *interpret* 
that text, like any historian trying to work out what happened from 
documents, but I have to support that interpretation with reference 
to things the characters have said, done or thought within the text.

Which is why I say Harry is not currently that important. WITHIN the 
world he inhabits, he isn't. He's a celebrity (the boy who lived), 
but Fudge doesn't consult him on questions of policy, Snape tells 
him he's a nasty little boy and gives him detentions, and Dumbledore 
has to step in and save his life. 

Oh, yes, he may turn out to be absolutely of vital importance, the 
boy who saves the world. But right now, he is not the centre of the 
world. Voldemort is worried about him, worried enough to *try* and 
kill him - but right now, Voldemort is probably more concerned about 
Dumbledore. Rightly so; if Dumbledore drops dead at the beginning of 
GoF, do you think Harry would have a clue how to go about defeating 
Voldemort?

Grey Wolf has given an extremely good explanation in #45138 of where 
the 'intelligence war' interpretation comes from; for me it started 
from the seed of noticing that there are references to 'spies' in 
CoS, PoA and especially GoF, and that the actions of the DE's 
reminded me strongly of the terrorist activities that I am sadly 
familiar with. 

But I don't think it's an interpretation that the text actually 
doesn't support - for example, if you can manage to explain why 
kindly old Dumbledore is practically *laughing* at one of his senior 
teachers having a near nervous breakdown in Chapter 22 of PoA, 
*without* recourse to 'Dumbledore is secretly an evil sadist', then 
you can argue that I'm twisting the text and everything is exactly 
as it seems. But until then, I'll stick with Snape is acting, which 
means there must be a reason for him to be acting, which in turn 
means...

...excuse me, I've just thought of some more canons to wash. :-)

Pip!Squeak