Hogwarts Student Population

[GulPlum]

No: HPFGUIDX 45546

(Several posts dealt with in this one; apologies for the length if anyone 
finds it unbearable) :-)

At 01:26 17/10/02 +0000, Steve wrote:

<snip>

>According to the American Heritage Dictionary*, you are wrong.
>
>HOWEVER, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, you are right.

Which just goes to validate the statement with which I started that post, 
that American usage is broader than British. I don't mean to appear 
obstreperous, but in what way does that make me both right and wrong?

JKR is British and AFAIK had never visited the USA before writing the 
books; British usage (not only of "dorm") is consistent throughout the 
books, so why should American usage be considered a viable interpretation? 
Yes, I know that the American publishers in their infinite wisdom chose to 
change some of the words which have entirely different meanings in American 
usage (namely "jumper"), but in cases where meanings are only broader or 
narrower, British usage should prevail. Especially when it comes to 
dialogue, rather than descriptions, as it is a British characters who are 
speaking.

>You would emphasize the words "Second Years". I would emphasize the
>words "OLD DORMITORY". Harry went back to the same room he had the
>previous year; his OLD DORMITORY, which is the same room he goes back
>to every year. He doesn't have to search for a sign to know which one it is.

In the part of my post you chose to excise, I said that it Harry & Co had 
no grounds to take it for granted that their OLD dorm would remain their 
NEW bedroom. It is specifically referred to as his "OLD dorm", not as "HIS 
dorm", which would indicate that he (and the Narrator) had no expectation 
that it would remain "his".

It is, however, interesting that the school felt it necessary or 
appropriate to include that notice on the door - no other dorm appears to 
include a label. Then again, it is unimportant to Harry which room houses 
which pupils so perhaps there are such labels on all the dorm doors, but he 
(and the Narrator) fails to remark upon them.

>So *IF* there are others in his year, they do the same thing. They go back 
>to the same room that they've had since the beginning, and find the sign 
>changed to indicate their current year. "SECOND YEARS" proves nothing 
>other than Harry is one year farther along in school.

Yes, but as a sign on a door, its function is not to impart unnecessary 
information to Harry and his room-mates about which year they're in, but 
which *room* they're in. To rephrase a comment in my previous post into a 
direct question: if there are any other second-year Gryffindor boys, what 
does the sign on *their* door say?

Jaye wrote:

>I still don't see why the door that says 'Second Years' couldn't lead to a 
>hallway or group of rooms.  Also, since no one else has mentioned 'magic 
>doors', I will. What if the 'Second Years' door is magic and understands 
>that when Harry and Ron are entering, they should be put in room 4, so it 
>opens to that room automatically. Teachers and people like Sirius Black 
>would have to tell the door which room they wanted, but it would still not 
>be a major problem.

Well, nobody's mentioned magic doors because there is absolutely zero canon 
indication that they exist (at least not at present, and not in the form in 
which you posit). :-) As things stand at this stage in the game, the door 
from the stairwell leads directly into the room with five beds in which 
Harry sleeps. I think (but can't be bothered to check right now) that there 
have been a few occasions when that door has been ajar - what would happen 
if someone in one of the other "magic rooms" had to use that door while it 
was open and showing the interior of Harry & Co's room?

>I argue these points because I just find it easier to accept this world JK 
>Rowling has built on her terms.  After all, she is the author. If she says 
>there are 1000 students in the school, I believe her. I just argue to make 
>what she says true. Now, I know that the interviews are not as canon as 
>what we see in the books, but I still believe that this is a very little 
>point to disagree with her on (on the other hand, I am fighting vehemently 
>for her over this 'little point', so maybe it's not so moot after all ;D )

Oh dear. I thought this discussion wasn't using extra-canonical 
information. :-) However, if you *really* want to go down that route, as 
far as Harry's year is concerned, JKR has made it clear how many pupils 
there are, in the "Harry Potter and Me" documentary shown at the end of 
last year. The notebook she showed, which unlike an off-the-cuff remark 
made during an in interview, is the very SOURCE of canon, shows Harry's 
year to include 41-43 pupils (as she pointedly refused to show the detail 
on the right-hand page to the camera, it's difficult to make out some of 
the text). As the names are in alphabetical order, from Abbott to Zambini, 
that's pretty conclusive. Screenshots of the notebook are available in the 
HPFGU files area:

http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/hpforgrownups/lst?.dir=/Harry+Potter+%2 
6+Me&.src=gr&.order=&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/hp 
forgrownups/lst%3f.dir=/Harry%2bPotter%2b%2526%2bMe%26.src=gr%26.view=t

If Harry's year is about 40 pupils, then a total of 1000 pupils at Hogwarts 
means that the remaining six years count about 960 pupils among them, or 
about 160 pupils on average in each year. Or, from another angle, as a 
rough average, about 240 Gryffindors other than those in Harry's year.

We know that Harry isn't the most observant or outgoing teenager in the 
world, but surely he'd have noticed during four years at school that his 
year is *a quarter* the size of the others? If only when arriving at 
Hogwarts in year 3 or 4, that there are so many more first years than there 
were when he first arrived? Or that, with 250 pupils crammed into the 
Gryffindor Common Room, he, Hermione and Ron always seem to be able to find 
a free table at which to work or talk, with nobody within eavesdropping 
distance? Or that, on entering the Common Room, he never has trouble 
spotting whoever he's looking for (if they're there)? Even if Harry had 
never noticed it, at some point over the last four years, Hermione 
certainly would have.

I'm not saying that it is utterly impossible for Harry's class to be a 
quarter the size of the others (this could indeed be an upcoming plot 
point), but I would find it unlikely, and unsatisfying if this was suddenly 
revealed to be the case.

And then Eileen waxed a bit more philosophical in a TBAY post (that wasn't 
particularly TBAYish apart from the intro) :-) when she said:

>The Hogwarts Numbers discussion has far-reaching implications. If Hogwarts 
>has a 1,000 students and is the only wizarding school in Britain, it's 
>possible that all magic children are schooled therein. If not, it isn't.

<snip>

I think that in terms of thematic consistency, it is important for Hogwarts 
to be the only School of Witchcraft and Wizardry in Britain which offers a 
full curriculum with specialist teachers. As I never cease to repeat at 
every possible opportunity, the central theme of the books is "prejudice". 
Whilst it would be interesting for the prejudice to extend as far as the 
choice of school, I personally find it more satisfying that Hogwarts is a 
microcosm of the *whole* (British) Wizarding community, and not just of its 
upper classes.

Certainly the mix of pupils' backgrounds, financial circumstances and race 
(both in terms of ethnicity and magical/Muggle parentage) would militate 
against any impression that Hogwarts itself is selective in any way (beyond 
selecting kids with basic magical potential).

People have put forward (including just now) that Stan Shunpike's broad 
Cockney and his (apparently) menial job are an indicator that he didn't 
attend Hogwarts.

For all we know, he and Ernie might well own and have developed the Knight 
Bus themselves and run it as their own business, apart from driving it and 
looking after the passengers. Why shouldn't they *choose* to drive and 
conduct the bus? On top of not having to pay staff, perhaps they actually 
enjoy that part of the job?

There is no indication that they run it on anyone else's behalf and so 
jumping to the conclusion that just because they speak non-Standard British 
English, they are either stupid, untalented or uneducated in both the 
magical arts and English is a sign of *reader* prejudice, not the Wizarding 
World's or JKR's. That they are able to jump from Cockney to Standard 
English at will is in fact a sign to the contrary, that they *are* educated 
in "proper" English, and observant enough to know when it is in their best 
interests to use it, such as when greeting a new passenger.

--
GulPlum AKA Richard, who thinks he's said enough on the subject for now. :-)