Robes and other Clothing

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 45756

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
BBoy_mn orginally said in short" 
> 
> ...huge snip....
> So, I highly suspect that the movie got most of the costumes pretty
> close. 
> 
> ...equally huge snip....
> 
> Who knew from reading what people perceive as I child's book, I would
> end up researching medievel cloths and swords, not to mention dozens
> of  other things I've research because of reading these books.
> 
> JKR.... Thanks, it's been fun and educating.
> 
> Just some thoughts.
> 
> bboy_mn

Wow, it really has been an education. Thanks to everyone who replied.
Agreed or disagreed, it was fun and informative.

First point-
I confess that most of my worldly knowledge comes from movies and TV,
and that is the source of my impression of schoolboy academic gowns/robes.

In this groups photo section, I added a new album called 'School
Robes'. In it are some still photos from the movie 'Lord of the
Flies'. This is the 1963 release British made, all British case
version of the film. 

[Note: moderators, feel free to delete these when you think they have
served their purpose.]

Note the first photo of boys in 'academic' over-robes including weird
hats, and white collars. Observe the open front on the robe of the
lead boy. You can see his school tie and white shirt.

Next photo, the standard British school boy uniform. Following that,
Boys in robes and regular school uniforms. Again, note the open front
on the robe; you can see his shirt and school tie.

Forth photo, note the boy in robes in the middle, you can see his legs
and I would assume that under his robes he is wearing his traditional
short pants schoolboy uniform.

Keep in mind the these boys are shipwreaked on a deserted island in
the Pacific. Again, I repeat, this is a British made movie with an all
British cast. Filmed in 1961, released in 1963, although I don't know
the exact date that the movie is taking place. That is, the date in
movie time.

Now, look at the next two photos from 'The Movie that will not be
Named'. Especially, the last one. These do not look that much
different that the 'school robes' in 'Lord of the Flies'. Slightly
modernized, and without the short pants. The wizarding world, may not
live a lifestyle consistent with the 20th Century but none the less,
they do live in the 20th Century. If find it hard to believe that
their clothing is 500 to 1,000 years behind the times. 

As a side note, notice what a terrible picture this is of Dan. Notice
also that Ron's robe is a slightly different color and slightly
different style than Harry's. Probably because it's second hand.

So while I have no trouble with the staff, especially Dumbledore,
wearing old style clothing. I still can't see the kids in completely
Dumbledore/Merlin style free flowing dress-like primary clothing
robes. But I guess we are all allowed to have our own vision as we read.

I don't imply that they are all wearing absolute modern butt drooping
baggy pants clothes. But given the overal wizard world as I see it, I
have a hard time dating the students clothing back farther than be
beginning of the 19th century.

Dress robes are another matter, they could be very formal and very
much in the Merlin robes tradition. 

Canon-
Well, we have 'robes', but not much direct detail as far as the
students. I have to assume, and I know assumptions aren't canon, that
if the robes were too odd or extreme, you would have heard someone
comment on it. Dean Thomas is a modern black muggle boy; hard to
believe he's not going to comment about having to wear a dress
everyday. Same with Harry, he grew up completely in the muggle world.
As much as he wants to be a wizard, I can't believe his mind wouldn't
have expressed some discomfort at wearing such odd clothing. 

The Movie(s)-
I know it's not kosher here to refernece the movie but we have very
few visual clues as to what JKR means by robes. 

The Sketches-
Someone else mention the sketches in the groups 'Harry Potter and Me'
photo album, but as far as I can tell, only adults are shown in robes.
These robes appear to be similar to the robes you might see a modern
Catholic Parish priest wearing in Britian (keep in mind that my window
into Britain is a 19" Panasonic). I assume your parish priest wears
pants under that ...errr... that.... whatever they call that thing.

Note the Mirror of Erised-
The man standing to the right rear of Harry's mother is dressed in a
suit and tie. The older man standing behind Harry's father appears to
be wearing a suit and tie. Very hard to tell though. It looks like his
jacket only goes to just below the butt, and it looks like you can see
the knot in his tie. Overal, this particular person is inconclusive.
Harry's father appears to either be wearing an unusual shirt or a very
light colored light weight over-robe.

Conclusion (at least mine)-
That the HP robes are in the tradition of academic robes as seen in
the 'Lord of the Flies' photos. For someone living in England, images
like this must be present in their lives, if in no other place than in
a historical context. So I don't see boys freaking out over an
academic style over-robe. 

To GulPlum:
Thanks for clearing up my impression of Parliment.

Quote GulPlum:(in part)
Let's not get meta-textual here. :-) In the four books to date, there
is no mention whatsoever of kids at Hogwarts wearing "trousers" (other
than pyjamas) but "robes" are mentioned on almost every second page.
... ... ... Specifically, there are several instances of Harry taking
off his "robes" and climbing into bed. 
-end GulPlum - this part-

bboy_mn:
To this, all I can respond with is that JKR is an extremely compact
efficient writer. She doesn't waist 5 pages describing every glint of
light, tactile sensation, and article of clothing as Harry gets
dressed and undressed. It's off with his robes, on with his pajamas,
then on with the story; no details. We are both making assumptions
about what those missing details mean. I'm not invalidating your
point, I'm simply saying there is room for interpretation.
-end bboy_mn - this part-

Quote GulPlum: (in part)
There is no mention of his ever removing anything else (just for the
sake of completeness, school uniforms are never, ever, referred to as
"robes" in contemporary English, and AFAIK never have been).
-end GulPlum - this part-

bboy_mn:
Hard to argue with that. I don't think I could interpret 'robes' as an
all inclusive term for the robe and all the rest of the school
uniform. But none the less, a 'robe' by definition is an over or outer
garment which implies some undergarment beyond (in my opinion)
underwear. That's how I see modern wizards wearing them, every much
like a business man wears a suit coat. I picture the under clothing
(regular clothing, not underwear) as being very old fashioned
historical versions of shirts and pant. Still far removed from modern
style clothing, but shirts and pants none the less. I can see some of
the very old fashioned wizards wearing robes similar to the robes I
imagine are worn by a parish priest for everyday use. 

The examples of over-robes in the historic costume sites made them
look very much like a coat (in terms of use). I also fall back on my
comment about JKR's efficient writing style. No need to mention
details unless they move the plot along.
-end bboy_mn - this part-

Quote GulPlum again:
Overall, then, I expect Hogwarts "robes" to be something akin to
choristers' robes, and absolutely, definitely, not the tasteful grey
trouser uniforms shown in TMTSNBNs.
-end GulPLum - this part-

bboy_mn:
Ah... sorry Amerimuggle here. Could you explain a 'choristers' robe'.
Sorry for showing my ingnorance. Thanks.
-end bboy_mn-

Well, a quick check of the message boards tells me that messages are
building up faster then I'm responding, so I think I'll go ahead and
post what I have now, and perhaps add more later.

It's been fun. Thanks.

bboy_mn