[HPforGrownups] Classist Hogwarts (was ... was .... was...)

[James P. Robinson III]

No: HPFGUIDX 45910

Just now getting around to replying to this.

                                 Jim

As the clock struck 04:37 AM 10/19/2002 +0100, GulPlum took pen in hand and 
wrote:
>At 17:21 18/10/02 -0500, James P. Robinson III wrote:
>
> >This is my first post here.  I will try not to break too many rules.  Go
> >gently with me.
>
>Welcome aboard! Watch the hurricane, though! (current TBAY-related
>reference, if you were wondering). :-)

Thank you.

> >Not that "boarding school" doesn't imply some level of elitism; it does.
>
>As an alumnus of a particularly un-elitist boarding school, I beg to differ
>on the absolute applicability of that statement. :-) However, in canon,
>Hogwarts is NEVER referred to as a "boarding school". OK, it is a boarding
>school, as the pupils live on campus, but this isn't necessarily an
>indication of elitism, but of practicality. For one thing, the pupils have
>lessons late at night (e.g. astronomy). For another, the wizarding
>community appears quite thinly distributed around the country, and thus it
>makes sense to have them all together so that they can get to know each
>socially, not just strictly academically. On top of that, as magic is
>potentially very dangerous, it helps for the kids to be in a controlled
>environment while they are learning.

I do not see how any of the above, while certainly true, nullifies the fact 
that Hogwarts is a boarding school and what would be called a public school 
in the UK and a prep school in the US.  I still maintain that, rightly or 
wrongly, there is a general association of elitism with such school.  I do 
not claim that every boarding school is an elite institution.

> >But Ron Weasley's presence at Hogwarts, to me, reinforces that elitism 
> rather
> >than negating it.  Ron is poor, certainly, but that has no impact on his
> >class.  In fact, I would argue that Ron is at Hogwarts primarily because of
> >his class.  He is from an old family, is a pure-bred, is a child of
> >Hogwarts alumni, speaks with a "good" accent (cf. Stan Shunpike), but seems
> >to have only meager magical ability.  Would he have a place at Hogwarts
> >aside from the circumstances of his birth?
>
>I apologise for using the same arguments over and over again, but I really
>can't stress this enough: what about Black Dean Thomas or Lee Jordan,

Neither of these are unequivocally black in the UK edition.  I presume 
making Dean black was an interpolation of the editors at Scholastic.

>  the
>self-confessed almost-Squib Neville Longbottom,

Neville's presence at Hogwarts is, I maintain, evidence of a classist 
element in the institution.  Neville does appear to be a near-squib, so why 
is he at Hogwarts at all?  Because he is "One of Our Kind".  He is from a 
good wizarding family, a pureblood and his parents were socially popular in 
the WW.  Neville's principal qualification to be at Hogwarts is his 
background not his ability.

>  the Muggle-born Hermione
>Granger or the Muggle milkman's kids the Creevey brothers, etc., etc.?

Muggles at Hogwarts seem to fall into the "scholarship boys" category.

>  Each
>of these fit into categories which by your rationale above would not give
>them a place at Hogwarts.

I do not understand this statement at all.  Ron and Neville are present at 
Hogwarts because of their class.  My argument is not that every Hogwarts 
student is admitted on account of his/her class.  By that standard, Eton 
and Choate would be non-elitist schools.  My argument is that class does 
have a role in Hogwarts admission.  It is certainly not the only factor.  I 
would further that by saying that I believe Hogwarts turns out adults 
prepared to enter, at least, an upper middle WW class (e.g., the MoM rather 
than the Knight Bus).  In my mind, this does make Hogwarts elite.  Let's 
also remember that, at least at one time, Lucius Malfoy dominated the 
Hogwarts Board of Governors.  Would he have had anything to do with a 
non-elite institution?

>As for Ron's "meagre" magical ability, I leave the Ron-philes to take you
>task. :-) Suffice to say, that whilst his grades don't appear to be
>particularly impressive, he's by no means at the bottom of his year. Any
>opinion of Ron's limited abilities is primarily his own, not other people's.

This is simply not my impression from the books.  He seems to consistently 
have trouble with his classes, but perhaps it is just the juxtaposition 
with Hermione that makes him look backwards.

>And as for Stan Shunpike, I've just made my thoughts clear in another thread.

How you view Stan seems to come down to whether you think he was at 
Hogwarts or not.  There does not appear to be any unequivocal canon either 
way.  In my head (no cracks please), it is inconceivable that he is an 
Hogwarts alumnus, but I cannot prove it.  I guess that is just a statement 
about me.

> >I believe this could just as easily point to a basically elitist school
> >system with a certain number of scholarship cases (what would have once
> >been called "charity boys") thrown in.  Ron Weasley and Neville Longbottom
> >may be good examples of students given a place at Hogwarts because of
> >their class (as in the circumstances of their birth) and in spite of their
> >meager or even negligible magical talent.  I agree that wealth seems to
> >play no part in selection for
> >Hogwarts.  I just think wealth is irrelevant to class standing.
>
>So, going by what you said in the bit I excised, race comes close to being
>important.

Hmm.  I don't believe I said anything about race.  I am not even sure that 
the WW upper class is racially homogenous.

>  Hogwarts accepts half-bloods and Muggle-borns, and it accepts
>non-WASPs.

Clearly it does.  It also accepts purebloods primarily from "good" 
families.  And it also accepts students from "good" families with otherwise 
questionable qualifications.

>Almost everyone in Harry's year (let's face it, these are the pupils we
>know best and by whom we can best judge Hogwarts' acceptance principles),
>has some kind of foible of birth which puts them into a category which
>would prejudice them. Whichever measure of "class" one wishes to use as a
>benchmark, *someone* in Harry's year fails it.

This has been refuted in another post.  The non-muggle students appear to 
come disproportionately from "good" families.

>  To say that each of these
>pupils has been granted a place on exceptional grounds for whatever reason
>is, frankly, insulting, both to them, and to JKR. :-) Within the storyline,
>and (meta-textually) as an indication of the "moral" JKR is trying to put
>across in the books, it quite simply doesn't make sense.

I do not see any necessary conflict, except in the sense that the "moral" 
as you say ( I am a little uncomfortable with that myself) of self-worth, 
individual choice, value of individual efforts and abilities, etc. only 
shows up at all if there is some contrary background.  Otherwise, that 
"moral" ideal would simply be the norm.  Likewise, that fact that Hogwarts 
is elite adds, for me at least, a note of realism (or should I say magical 
realism ;> ).  It does not take away from Hogwarts' wonderfulness or the 
"moral" message, if you go in for that sort of thing, it adds to it.

                                                         Jim

>