[HPforGrownups] Re: Slytherins heir? Says who?

[eloiseherisson at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 43606

Brian:

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., eloiseherisson at a... wrote:
> > snip: assuming his mother had also been at Hogwarts, there were 
> likely to 
> > be other students who knew her family, some of the staff were 
> likely to have 
> > known her. Perhaps the old head of Slytherin house quietly took 
> him aside one 
> > day and told him.
> > I think there are ways he could have found out.
> 
> BIG assumtion.  Faculty and student body both know a lot more about 
> Harry's parents and family history than Harry does, and they tell 
> him nit. Draco rubs his nose in this fact in PoA. Even Sirius, his 
> Godfather, the best man at his parents' wedding tells him nothing. 
> All we really know about Lily and James is he was good at Quidditch, 
> and she didn't have to die. You'd think that the sire and dam of The 
> Boy Who Lived would have had something written about them. Hermione, 
> any luck finding it? We know qualitatively more about Longbottom's 
> parents than Harry's.

Eloise:
I'm not sure which part of my post above you're objecting to, so I'll presume 
(dangerous as this is) that it's both parts.

Let me get this straight. You are saying (going back to your original post):
1) That Riddle can't have found out about his ancestry from a genealogy 
section in the library, as Harry could therefore also find out about his 
parents from it and he doesn't seem to have done.
2) That Riddle wouldn't have been told anything about his ancestry by anyone 
at Hogwarts, as those in the know have told Harry very little about his 
parents/history.

I suggested that Riddle's mother might have been at Hogwarts. Is this the BIG 
assumption?
I didn't say that this was what happened, I said, *assuming*. I simply said 
there were conceivable ways that Riddle could find out about his parentage.
Let's rephrase: It is not unreasonable to suggest that Riddle's mother, a 
witch and apparently descendent (?implied direct) of Salazar Slytherin, 
resident in England at the time of giving birth, also attended Hogwarts.  
Absence of evidence does not constitute evidence of absence, after all. 
Alternatively, perhaps poor Tom had the misfortune to have not only a Muggle 
for a father, but also a mother who wasn't even a good enough witch to get 
into Hogwarts. Or she might have been educated abroad, a not unreasonable 
assumption from her name, I grant you.
*If* she attended Hogwarts (and even if she didn't), his parentage might well 
be known to the staff, at least. Or not. But it is a possibility that we 
cannot discount.

Now Harry, as you suggest, knows next to nothing about his parents. He knows 
nothing primarily because, despite the desperate longing for them to which 
the Mirror of Erised attests, he rarely tries to find out anything, being 
content with whatever pieces of information fall into his lap. Dumbledore 
seems quite happy to tell him things up to a point, but Harry asks only a 
limited amount, as he does of Remus, Sirius and Hagrid. 
How much of this is to do with the exigences of JKR's plotline and how much 
to do with his unwillingness or inability to take on his parents' legacy, or 
with his parent's friends' desire to protect him from what he does not yet 
need to know, I can't say, but his intense *lack* of curiosity and the small 
amount of information which is volunteered by those in the know is 
remarkable.

As it happens, I see no reason for there to be much written about Lily and 
James. They were very young when they died and whatever they did after 
Hogwarts seems to have been secret (certainly from us: I recall JKR stating 
that she couldn't say what they did as it would become important later). 
Harry is the one who is famous and as such, his parents may have been 
relegated to footnotes, or brief but glowing reports of their successes at 
Hogwarts. In any case, a genealogy section in itself might tell Harry little 
more than the names of his ancestors.

Riddle, on the other hand, appears to have gathered all the information he 
can. He was popular with the staff, aside from Dumbledore. Isn't it likely 
that *had* his ancestry (note the italics) been known to staff members, 
particularly the Head of Slytherin, that he would have taken every opporunity 
to find out? Isn't it also likely that a Head of Slytherin House who knew 
that he had a descendent (the last remaining descendent according to canon) 
of Salazar Slytherin in his care would have taken some special interest in 
him? (Leaving aside the RL genealogical problems of how many descendents 
there must be)

Now kindly note that I am *not* saying that this is what happened. It's an 
alternative theory. We have no canon for it. But it is at least as likely, 
IMHO, as your scenario.
> 
> 
> >> Brian:> 
> > >      One explaination would be the ability to speak 
> parseltongue. 
> > > Again, in the Chamber, Diary!Riddle describes himself and Harry 
> > > as "probably the only two Parselmouths to attend Hogwarts since 
> the 
> > > great Slytherin himself". A thousand years since Slytherin left 
> > > Hogwarts and then TWO parselmouths in the same century? Diary!
> > > Riddle's use of the word "probably" was prudent because there's 
> no 
> > > way for him to know for sure.  After the incedent at the 
> duelling 
> > > club, Ron tells Harry that "it's not a very common gift". Either 
> > > this is the understatement of the year, or the ability just 
> isn't 
> > > seen (or heard, for that matter) in England very often. If the 
> gift 
> > > was as rare as Diary!Riddle seems to think, why would Harry's 
> use of 
> > > it create the stir that it did? It would show up so seldom that 
> no 
> > > one would have memory of it, and nothing would be written about 
> it 
> > > other than through association with Slytherin, probably as a 
> > > footnote in his official bio. 
> > 
> > Eloise:
> > I think you've put your finger on it. It is *extremely* rare (to 
> say the 
> > least), but it was one of the things Slytherin was *famous* for 
> (COS, 147, UK 
> > PB). Rather than being a footnote, I think that everyone except 
> Harry 
> > *immediately* made the connection.
> > I also think that there may well have been other Parselmouths in 
> the interim, 
> > who had the good sense to keep their ability hidden! Harry would 
> have, I'm 
> > sure, if he'd realised the implications.
> 
> I think you misunderstood me slightly. 

Eloise:
Evidently. I do now.

Brian:
>Quantitativly, there is a 
>significant difference between "not very common" and "*extremely* 
>rare (to say the least)". Other than that, we seem to be on the same 
>sheet of music here.

Eloise:
I'm sorry, I exaggerated, remembering Dumbledore's words as 'extremely rare' 
rather than 'very rare', which I think is also quantitatively different from 
'not very common'
Unless you're English, of course.
IMO, Ron's statement was indeed an ironic use of understatement. It would be 
in character. I wish I could *say* it, with the correct intonation.

But what is your point? I'm missing it. I thought you were saying that 
Parseltongue was so rarely encountered that hardly anyone should have 
recognised/worried about it, whereas canon tells us that it was what 
Slytherin was famous for and the reason for the Slytherin symbol.

> > 
> > Brian:> 
> > >      Working hypothesis: Riddle, as a first year, read the 
> Slytherin 
> > > bio and was intrigued by the legend of the Chamber of Secrets. 
> He 
> > > then began to study all that he could over the next few years 
> about 
> > > Slytherin himself, and his research eventually took him into the 
> > > restricted section of the library. Being a favorite of almost 
> the 
> > > entire faculty (Dumbledore excepted), such access should not 
> have 
> > > posed much of a difficulty.  It was in the restricted section, 
> that 
> > > he obtained the clues to give him the location of the entrance 
> to 
> > > the Chamber. At this point in my theory, I should point out that 
> I 
> > > do not believe he was a parselmouth. 
> > 
> > Eloise:
> > You mean that he is not yet a Parselmouth at this stage of the 
> theory?
> > And yes, we know he did five years' research before finding the 
> entrance.
> > 
> > Brian:
> > He had found the tap with the > snake scratched on it and dedeuced 
> the 
> > > parseltongue "password". He then transfigured himself into a 
> snake in order 
> > > to open the tunnel. (I am not suggesting that he was an 
> animagus; Animagi 
> > > transform at will but wizards can transfigure themselves with 
> spells as 
> > > evidenced 
> > > by Krum in the second trial of the Triwizard tournament.)
> > > This is how he gained access to the Chamber and it's contents. 
> One 
> > > of the items I think he discovered was a "Last Will and 
> Testament" 
> > > which was enchanted with some of the essence of Salazar 
> Slytherin in 
> > > much the same way that the diary was imbued with a little of Tom 
> > > Riddle. It was after Tom's possession by this document that he  
> > > literally became Slytherin's heir, AND aquired the ability to 
> speak 
> > > parseltongue because, in a sense, Slytherin HIMSELF now lives!

> > 
> > Eloise:
> > That's an interesting theory and I think it works, although it 
> depends on a 
> > few things for which we have no canonical proof. But doesn't it 
> also imply 
> > that Slytherin must also live in Harry via the curse that failed?


Brian:> 
> What things are those? 
> 
Eloise:
1) He had access to the Restricted Section to do his reasearch.
2) The information was in there which allowed him to find the entrance to the 
Chamber (information which Dumbledore seems to have missed).
3) He transfigured himself into a snake in order to gain access to the 
tunnel.
4) That there was a 'Last Will and Testament' imbued with essence of 
Slytherin.

Brian:
>Absence of evidence does not constitute evidence of absence.

Eloise:
Nor did I say it did. 
Did you miss the bit where I said I thought it was an interesting theory that 
worked?
You may have it spot on, for all I know and working it backwards, from the 
theory that Riddle was Slytherin's heir because he actually contained a bit 
of Slytherin's essence, I can see how you might have got there.

Brian:
 >That's why canon is canon, and theory is theory!

Eloise:
Indeed it is. I've been party to some pretty wild and whacky theories myself. 

But you didn't answer my question.
If Riddle became the heir of Slytherin through being possesed by his Will, 
thus gaining his gift of Parseltongue, doesn't the same apply to Harry, 
connected to Voldemort by the curse which failed, having a little of 
Voldemort within him and gaining in turn his gift of Parseltongue?
It wouldn't be the first time that it had been suggested that Harry is the 
heir of both Slytherin *and* Gryffindor.


Brian:
>Teeth still clenched, but one eye cautiously open 

I don't know why. You give at least as good as you get. And I thought I *was* 
being gentle, last time. I even put in little smiley emoticons. But never 
mind.

Eloise



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