[HPforGrownups] Re: Neville

[Carol Bainbridge]

No: HPFGUIDX 43718


>Richelle wrote:
>
> >> Next topic, I really don't think Neville's under an imperious
>curse.  It just doesn't figure.  How would one transfer control of an
>Imperious?  Especially while the one who supposedly put the curse on
>is having his soul sucked out. <<
>
>Melody:
>Good point.  What would happen if someone was under the imperious
>curse and someone else also imperious cursed the same person without
>knowledge that they were already under the curse with another wizard?
>  I would think it would not be possible.

Me:
Maybe something along the lines of bus transfers would work?  Seriously, 
this raises some questions I hadn't thought about at all.  Is there a 
generic version of the imperious curse?  Something that would allow any and 
all dark wizards to do the controlling?  I hadn't thought about it before, 
but just who was controlling all those wizards during V's time of power? 
Surely, V wasn't consciously controlling each and every one.  Exactly what 
does it mean to be under the control of this curse?  I had assumed that it 
meant the person doing the cursing was the one doing the conscious 
controlling and it certainly looks that way when Moody uses that curse on 
the spider.  But now I wonder....

>One thing is for sure
>though.  If Neville has always been under imperious curse, then he
>definately is not fighting it.

But wasn't Harry the only one who was at all successful in fighting it?  If 
I were a dark wizard, the person I'd pick first to put under my control 
(however that works) would be a little wizard like Neville.  I'd bet Moody 
got an earful in the "teachers' lounge" about Neville's incompetence.  That 
makes Neville a perfect choice as he'd be the one most likely to be unable 
to resist the curse.  Even if Moody did not hear about Neville from other 
teachers, I'd bet Moody/Crouch could see that Neville wasn't the most 
secure of the bunch.  For all I know, that magic eye of Moody's, which 
Crouch is using, can see more than physical things.  And Moody/Crouch did 
take a good, long look into Neville's eyes, didn't he?  (I seem to remember 
that.)  The fact that Neville would have been singled out for this curse 
early on would make his potential role at the end of the series (possibly 
fighting off the curse at last) even more significant.  (I can't believe we 
have to wait till 2003 for book 5 -- how long before we can answer all 
these other questions with book 7?  Well, I should have lots more time to 
ponder the questions, as I'll undoubtedly be old enough to retire by then.)

>Melody:
>Watching the spider curses probably are emotional abuse on the
>children but I think it is address in the chapter at the end with
>Moody/Crouch's kind words to Neville and Potter.  I wonder if those
>kind words are Crouch's or Crouch's view of what Moody would do?
>Wherer is that line?  I really like CrouchJr.'s character so this
>puzzles me.  What if CrouchJr. followed with Voldemort to the Potters
>that night and was there at the murders.  That would make the scene
>even more leathal.  The very man that brought the downfall of these
>two young boys lives was teaching them now the curses he used and then
>comforting them afterwards.  It is possible.  Sorry I am really tired
>and my mind wanders.

Two thing about this:  One, I agree with you about how lethal this scene 
becomes if one looks at it this way.  I'd add something else that might 
make it more lethal yet.  Moody/Crouch says that he and Dumbledore think 
that the kids are really old enough to learn about these curses and that 
Dumbledore has given him permission to teach them. However, do we *know* 
that Dumbledore has given his permission?  We can assume that had he not, 
Moody/Crouch would have gotten into trouble for doing it, but we don't 
*know* that either.  What if Moody/Crouch introduced the students to these 
curses for more devious reasons?  I mean it does seem odd that this villain 
would truly want little witches and wizards to know how to protect 
themselves.  There might be other reasons.  For instance, he might want to 
know which ones are capable of resisting and which aren't, Harry in 
particular.  It's a good idea in a battle/war to know your enemy.  Another 
reason is to make sure that the younger generation knows exactly what it 
means to oppose Voldemort.  After all, hearing about the curses isn't the 
same as seeing them in action.  Seeing them in action must have a deeper 
emotional affect than just hearing about them.  And we have evidence that 
this is true.  Harry rethinks the scene of his parents death.  Ron is 
intrigued.  Hermione is outraged.  Intellectual understanding just isn't 
the same as first-hand experience.  Anyway, I think it is quite possible 
that Moody/Crouch illustrated those curses for his own reasons and pleasure.

Second, how much comforting do we know Moody/Crouch has actually 
done?  Sure, he asks Harry and Neville if they are all right, but that's 
not quite the same as comforting.  As for comforting Neville with a nice 
cup of tea, how do we know what actually took place in Moody's office?  No 
one else was there, to our knowledge, and we know nothing other than that 
Moody/Crouch gave Neville a book.

Melody:

>It really abused both Harry and Neville really, but I think Dumbledore
>and Moody/Crouch thought it would help toughen them up a little by
>showing them what they already know exists.

Except that we only have Moody/Crouch's word that Dumbledore approved of 
this exercise.  Everyone doesn't know what everyone else in doing in the 
different classes.  Snape didn't know what Lupin was doing until he 
substituted for him in the DADA class.  If students are happy, the don't 
complain and so word doesn't get out much.  They were happy with 
Lupin.  They're happy with Moody/Crouch too, so it's unlikely they'd 
complain and spill the beans.

Melody:
>Childhood memories are
>often worse than the real deal, though I can not imagine torture and
>death getting worse.  It is like everyone not saying Voldemort's name.
>  All it does is promote fear and nothing else.  If they started saying
>his name, they would have to address the fear and start building
>courage against it.  Same with the curses here.  By showing the curses
>to the kids (teenagers), they now know what is so bad and what to
>expect.  Helps in reduce the anxiety.

I would agree it that is the intent.  However, as I said, what if Crouch's 
intention was to ultimately increase fear?  That is, when the dark wizard's 
being to rise again in power, the mere mention of the curses should do a 
nice job of scaring those former students without having to actually use 
them.  They would already know exactly what the effects are.


Carol Bainbridge
(kaityf at jorsm.com)

http://www.lcag.org