TBAY - Despiadado Denethor, Imperius, and Cruciatus

[lucky_kari]

No: HPFGUIDX 44636

"The Aurors were given new powers -- powers to kill rather than 
capture, for instance. And I wasn't the only one who was handed 
straight to the dementors without trial. Crouch fought violence with 
violence, and authorized the use of the Unforgivable Curses against 
suspects. I would say he became as ruthless and cruel as many on the 
Dark Side." - Sirius Black, GoF

(Author's Note: In the Spanish edition, Sirius accuses Crouch of 
being "despiadado," a word that I couldn't translate, but proved a 
hit with list members.)

Eileen reads the quote over several times. Of course, Sirius Black 
never lies or exaggerates. So it must be true.

"Not having much success with the Crouch Sr. apologetics?" asks 
Elkins, who is sprawled on the sofa reading a 20th century trashy 
novel. 

"He wasn't Stalin, Elkins."

>"Well..."
>
>"Honestly, now, Elkins. Honestly."
>
>"Honestly?" Elkins struggled for a moment with this concept, then 
>sighed. "No," she admitted. "I guess not. Crouch was a man of 
>honor. He did release Karkaroff in exchange for his information, 
>just like he said he would, and in spite of the fact that Aurors 
>like Moody would have preferred to 'throw him back to the 
>dementors.' And people *were* acquitted under his regime. All of 
>those Death Eaters got off the hook, and so did Bagman. Crouch 
>wasn't Stalin."

"Well I'm glad that's over:
>that *ridiculous* attempt to smear poor Crouch by painting him as a 
>Stalin figure, with the Aurors as his bluecaps," says Eileen.

"Yes," says Elkins, a twisted smile playing on her lips. "May I ask 
who you WOULD compare Crouch to oh-fellow-lover-of-Solzhenitsyn?"

"Let's not go there," says Eileen.

"Why not?"

"Because well.... I like Crouch Sr. He's got the redemption scene, 
he's got the tragic backstory, he's dead sexy..."

"Liking a character," says Elkins, "has nothing to do with approving 
of them. How many times do I need to say that?"

"Hmmm...You know what first strikes me about the whole set-up. The 
Death Eaters are every dictator's dream conspiracy. They're ordinary 
citizens who have infiltrated every branch of the government. They 
can strike anywhere at anyone. They remind me very much of the sort 
of conspiracies Stalin liked to pretend he was facing. Except for 
once, it's real. So, I really don't know who to compare Crouch to. 
That sort of thing doesn't really exist in real life. Think of all 
the parallels proposed on the list. The Klu Klux Klan. The IRA. Al-
Quaeda. The Nazis."

"Godwin's law," warns Elkins.

"Warning taken," says Eileen. "The point is that none of these 
parallels work. There is no historical parallel for the Death Eaters. 
There isn't a terrorist group that operates completely in secret and 
yet has the capacity to destroy the government and life as we know 
it.... except in conspiracy theories."

"So the parallel for the Dark Mark is the black helicopters?" asks 
Elkins curiously.

"Yes. Rowling asks us to believe in a situation that is in our world 
impossible."

"So how does this relate back to our friend Crouch?"

"Well, think about it. He's facing down a situation that one doesn't 
face in real life. Can you blame him if he went a little overboard?"

Elkins puts her hand under the sofa and pulls out a worn, well-read 
book.

"The Two Towers!" says Eileen. "I was wondering where I put it."

Elkins opens the book and begins to read. 

------------------------------

" I had forgotten that," said Éomer. "It is hard to be sure of 
anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf 
and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with 
the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war 
that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode 
into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"

"As he ever has judged," said Aragorn. "Good and ill have not changed 
since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves, and 
another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the 
Golden Wood as in his own house."

---------------------------------

"Or at the Ministry of Magic, I suppose," says Eileen sighing. "You 
know I'm a sucker for Tolkien references."

"So now that you've faced up to Crouch's iniquity, what next?" says 
Elkins breezily.

"Well, let's take a look at another fictional character who had to 
face down a power that would destroy life as we know it."

A look of recognition dawns in Elkins' face. After digging around 
under the sofa for a bit, she hands Eileen another worn-out volume 
entitled "The Return of the King."

---------------------------------

"Would that have availed to change your judgement?" said 
Denethor. "You would still have done just so, I deem. I know you 
well. Ever your desire is to appear lordly and generous as a king of 
old, gracious, gentle. That may well befit one of high race, if he 
sits in power and peace. But in desperate hours gentleness may be 
repaid with death."

---------------------------------

"Couldn't you see Crouch saying that, Elkins?"

"You do know that I LIKE Denethor?" says Elkins.

"Of course," says Eileen, a Malfoyish smirk quivering on her face. 
(Elkins privately wonders if Eileen is losing her mind.)
---------------------------------

"So be it,"said Faramir.

"So be it!" cried Denethor. "But not with your death only, Lord 
Faramir: with the death also of your father, and of all your people, 
whom it is your part to protect now that Boromir is gone."

---------------------------------

"Faramir, of course, as Denethor rightly observed, had gone over to 
Gandalf school of thought, a school of thought that has been 
continued in a certain Albus Dumbledore."

"Right," says Elkins with a smile. "To quote myself,
>We see it in every hair of Albus Dumbledore's beard, in every 
>twinkle of his eyes, in that "Ware Balrog" sign that Pip once 
>noticed stuck to his back.

"So, then," says Eileen, "let's frame the HP world in LOTR terms. 
Albus Dumbledore is Gandalf. Crouch is Denethor. Voldemort is Sauron. 
Harry Potter is Frodo Baggins. Hermione Granger is Merry Brandybuck 
(who actually read the maps.) Ron Weasley is Pippin Took (who 
didn't.) Ginny Weasley would be Sam Gamgee. If you believe in-ever-so-
evil Fudge, he could be Saruman. Draco Malfoy is Legolas."

"Eileen, that is useless!" cries Elkins. "Five points from 
Gryffindor! This is a place for serious discussion, not amusing 
character analogues!"

"Right," says Eileen who was about to compare Madame Rosmerta with 
Barliman Butterbur. "I got a little carried away there. Anyway, 
that's my analogue for Crouch. I can't help respecting Denethor. I 
can't help respecting Crouch. And Denethor didn't even get a 
redemption scene."

"I'll have to tackle that redemption scene sooner or later," says 
Elkins.

A look of fear appears in Eileen's eyes. "Do you really, really have 
to?" she asks. "Because well... Cindy and I were talking, and we 
realized that we have NEVER EVER won an argument with you over 
ANYTHING! Now, Cindy's hopeful you'll eventually slip up, but I'm not 
so optimistic."

"Now, now," begins Elkins modestly.

"Do you know what you have done to me? You have destroyed my faith in 
the aurors, subverted my vision of Neville, shook my belief in J.K. 
Rowling...."

"You've enjoyed every minute of it," says Elkins brusquely.

"That's true," says Eileen. "Let me confess that I like nothing 
better than seeing you attack Crouch Sr. It makes me feel beleaguered 
and under pressure."

"Which is a good feeling?" asks Elkins, taking out a notepad.

"Well, it's exciting anyway," says Eileen eyeing the notepad with 
distrust. "It gives me my one chance to be non-sycophantic. Do you 
want to talk about Karkaroff, btw?"

"Nothing would delight me more," says Elkins. 

"Karkaroff, although a member of SYCOPHANTS, was very tough. He was 
in Azkaban a long time before he cracked."

"I've noted that," says Elkins. "Cindy was quite delighted with the 
observation, IIRC."

"How hard did Crouch try to get those names that it took about year 
and Karkaroff somewhat willingly relinquished them? Wouldn't a good 
dose of Cruciatus have done the trick? It wasn't as if Crouch hadn't 
that option."

"More Crouch apologetics?" gasps Elkins. 

"Not exactly. Only questions. Do you remember that big dispute over 
whether Imperius would force someone to divulge information?"

"Yes."

"Well, I don't know how it works, but I don't think it can. What 
would be the use for Cruciatus if Imperius does the job cleanly?"

"What about Veritaserum?" asks Elkins.

"Veritaserum is the most disturbing thing in the entire HP series. We 
could say that it's a new invention, I suppose, but if it doesn't 
mess up our past speculations, it's sure to mess up our speculations 
about the future. No, I'm almost ready to write Veritaserum off as a 
FLINT, unless Rowling explains some severe limitation to its use..... 
Anyway, back to the use of Cruciatus. The Solzhenitsyn quote?"

Elkins rummages under the sofa again and pulls out a thick black book 
with gold lettering: the Gulag Archipelago.

"In view of the extraordinary situation prevailing....interrogators 
were allowed to use violence and torture on an unlimited basis, at 
their own discretion...'"

"Which seems a good parallel for the Potterverse," says Eileen "based 
on Sirius's description of the times. However, it seems that the 
interrogators didn't use that much violence and torture at their own 
discretion on Karkaroff. We both agree, of course, that people don't 
often keep secrets under torture. And I think JKR would know that as 
well.... She's no George Lucas. No, Karkaroff stumps me. Unless 
Crouch thought he knew nothing.... Now there's a possibility."

"What about the people Karkaroff indicted? Take a look at what I said:

>Karkaroff gives a bunch of names, right? The *only* >useful name we 
see him give is Rookwood. And then, >the *very next thing we see* is 
Bagman's trial. Why >was he arrested? Was there any evidence *before* 
his >arrest, other than Rookwood's denunciation? Was there
>any evidence for Rookwood's arrest, other than >Karkaroff's 
denunciation? Sirius says that >Karkaroff 'put a load of other people 
>in Azkaban in his place.' But the only genuinely >*useful* name he 
gives in the Pensieve is Rookwood's. >So Rookwood's arrest must have 
led to a whole *slew* >of other arrests, and most of those people 
must 
>*not* have been let free, as Bagman was. Was there >hard evidence 
for *any* of those people to be >arrested at all? Or were they just 
arrested on the >say-so of other convicts?

Eileen nods. "Rookwood spilt the beans pretty quickly, I should 
think. He reminds me of one of those people who filled out sheet 
after sheet of their "fellow conspirators" for the KGB in the deluded 
hope that their co-operation would lighten their sentence. And I'm 
not entirely sure Rookwood was completely honest in denouncing other 
people. He obviously fingered Ludo Bagman as a supporter of 
Voldemort, and that wasn't true."

"Eileen, how can you say that? The D.E.V.I.L.s will be upon us! Have 
you ever seen Cindy brandishing her hatchet leading the hordes?"

"Well, I don't like D.E.V.I.L. (Death Eater Verily Is Ludo). It ruins 
the whole structure of GoF, imho. Let's just take the text at face 
value here, shall we? If Rowling reveals Ludo as a dark and dangerous 
death eater eventually, I'll have to reconsider. But if not, we're 
left with a case that really never should have come to trial in the 
first place. It's implied that it was pretty obvious (even to Throw 
that scum back to the Dementors!Moody) that Bagman was guilty of 
stupidity, not treason. Bagman's Quidditch fame got him out of that 
mess, but I'm sure that a lot of other innocent people ended up in 
Azkaban on Rookwood's accusation."

Elkins nods.

"Have you noticed, btw, that Ludo Bagman does not plead innocent? He 
admits to everything Crouch charges him with doing, except that he 
insists he didn't know what Rookwood was up to. I'm going to go out 
on a limb and guess that there weren't many pleas of complete 
innocence."

Elkins reads from the Gulag Archipelago: "People have speculated 
about a Tibetan potion that deprives a man of his will, and about the 
use of hypnosis. Such explanations must by no means be rejected: if 
the NKVD possessed such methods, clearly *there were no moral rules* 
to prevent resorting to them. Why not weaken or muddle the will?"

"A very good selection," says Eileen approvingly. "What was it you 
said about it?"

>"Why not, indeed?" Elkins cried. "But unlike the >NKVD, the WW *did* 
have moral rules preventing them >from using that technique. Until 
>*Crouch* got his hands on them, that is.

Eileen nods. "How many times has someone on the list commented on the 
fanaticism Mrs. Lestrange shows in the Penseive scene."

"About once a week."

"Right, there seems to be this belief among Potter fans that Mrs. 
Lestrange was too stupid and fanatical to shut up and deny all 
charges. Well, I don't think so anymore. I think Crouch got her 
confession with Imperius. Remember Dumbledore said the evidence 
against the Pensieve four was inconclusive. What's the only way to 
convict with inconclusive evidence?"

"A confession."

"And Mrs. Lestrange, Mr. Lestrange, and Ave.. I mean the Fourth Man 
would seem to have confessed, don't you think? Once you see it this 
way, Mrs. Lestrange's defiance of Crouch isn't stupid. He's already 
forced her to sign her life away, so she might as well give him the 
chilling fanaticism speech."

"Crouch Jr. pleaded innocent, though," says Elkins.

"Yes. That makes perfect sense to me. He was the son of the Head of 
Magical Law Enforcement, wasn't he? Barty Jr. may have thought that 
was no advantage, but I'm sure everyone was a lot more careful with 
him. No Cruciatus. No Imperius. Just convicted formally on the 
Lestranges' say-so, and actually on whatever it was that Frank 
Longbottom and his wife were raving about..... Well, that about wraps 
it up. I have only have one more question for the moment."

"Yes?"

"How did Lucius Malfoy get off?"

Eileen

--------------------------------------------------

For an explanation of the acronyms and theories in this post, visit 
Hypothetic Alley at 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin20Files/hypothe
ticalley.htm 

and Inish Alley at 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?
ethod=reportRows&tbl=13