SHIP: H/H, H/R or other?

[Judy M. Ellis]

No: HPFGUIDX 44669

Jessica wrote:
>It is with heavy heart and a great deal of forced 
>objectivity that I have assert my belief that JKR 
>intends for Ron and Hermione to end up together 
>*The most obvious proof for this pairing is the 
>emotional tension between Hermione and Ron throughout
>GoF. Chapter 22 “The Unexpected Task” 
>clearly indicates the couplings JKR believes are
>viable. *Remember* before GoF came out, JKR said that
>H/R/Hr would end up with the wrong people. Apply that
>thought to “The Unexpected Task.” When the four
>players â€" Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Ginny â€" start out
>together…

Judy responds:  
     What a wonderfully meaty post! I just love the logical way you 
think, even when I don’t exactly agree.  I too am cheering for a H/H 
relationship and have a few observations I've tried to make as 
objectively as I can, which might keep hope alive for you.  I know 
you are one to appreciate the need sometimes of a long, thoughtful 
post so here goes:  (Maybe you should get a cup of coffee.)
 I wanted to respond right away, but you brought up so many 
thoughtful questions that I had to go back and do a lot of 
rereading.  I found the quote JKR made before Gof came out.  It was 
taken from a chat transcript on Wed, Sept 18, 1999:
"I'm having so much fun writing Book 4 because for the first time 
Harry, Ron, and Hermoine are starting to recognize boys and girls as 
boys and girls. Everyone is IN LOVE with the wrong people."  
(emphasis mine) 
http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/September_1999_Barnes_Noble.
htm
Being "in love" with the wrong people is a long way from "being with 
the wrong partners," don't you agree?
     Now, please consider the following about Ginny Weasley:
I may be wrong, or missed important bits, but I could find no canon 
evidence that Ginny Weasley has in any way become a "major player" 
in GoF or any other books.  The Trio has never taken her into their 
confidence and, by GoF, she is, for all intents and purposes, still 
an outsider.  On more than one occasion, she is shut out of one of 
the Trio's secret discussions.  We see her first in SS/PS eager to 
just catch a glimpse of Harry.  In CoS, she is even more smitten 
with him.  (JKR makes it abundantly clear with the whole Gilderoy 
Lockhart substory that Harry abhors that kind of blind adoration.) 
Add to this the fact that in Chap. 17 he so gallantly rescues her 
from Tom Riddle and his basilisk in the Chamber. (The classic 
valiant fairy tale knight slaying the dragon and rescuing the fair 
maiden) and he thus becomes a living embodiment of her fantasy hero--
One-dimensional and not a real person at all.  I think this is 
emphasized by their conversation afterward.  She appears more 
emotionally fragile than ever, crying that she might be expelled, 
and Harry is more like a protector trying to comfort her.  There was 
not a hint of anything between them or the knowledge of a shared 
experience. Even after she has recovered from the ordeal, she 
doesn't ever seem to ponder the considerable emotional and physical 
trauma he went through to rescue her.  
     Ginny does not know Harry in any way other than the most 
superficial. By GoF, she’s still giggling when he smiles at her 
(Chap. 5) This is nearly a mirror of the relationship Harry has with 
Cho.  He only knows "she is pretty, is a good Quidditch player and 
is very popular." (Chap. 22 GoF) They have never sat down and had a 
conversation. All Harry knows is that his stomach does flip flops 
when she is around. Just as Ginny doesn't know if she'd even LIKE 
the real Harry -- Harry doesn't know if he'd LIKE the real Cho. Of 
course, all this could change, according to a recent interview with 
JKR, Ginny will play a larger role in the upcoming OoP. This was 
taken from an interview on "Oregon Live": 
http://www.oregonlive.com/books/index.ssf?/books/00/10/al_11browl22.f
rame

Jessica also wrote:
>*I know I’m not the only person who’s noticed the
>similarities between Mr. and Mrs. Weasley’s
>relationship and Ron and Hermione’s... 

Judy responds:
     Mrs. Weasley yells at anyone and everyone she is upset with.  I 
have an Irish friend who swears that strong, dominant women are an 
Irish staple.  Perhaps Mrs. Weasley is a caricature of the loving 
but dominant Irish mother.    Mr. and Mrs. Weasley's relationship, 
however, despite the many rows, is a loving one based on mutual 
respect and understanding. With Mr. and Mrs. Weasley, there is 
a "we" concept "we were worried," "We thought it best..."  Consider 
that Mrs. Weasley never insults her husband about his inability to 
provide a comfortable lifestyle for the family.  It’s always, "we’ll 
manage."  Chap. 4 CoS   She is also protective of him.  Chap. 4 
CoS   In GoF Ch.10, p.146 (American paperback) there is a tender 
exchange after the World Cup Quidditch match that effectively shows 
the foundations of the relationship between Mr. and Mrs. Weasley, 
when she runs to embrace him as he and the children are returning.   
With Hermione and Ron, apart from the Trio, there is no "we" concept-
-they just argue.  Harry and Hermione, however, have been slowly 
developing one which I will discuss later.

Jessica continued: 
>...*Finally, it’s my belief that Ron *needs* Hermione in
>order to reach his full potential as an individual.
>Though they argue quite a bit, Hermione helps to keep
>Ron grounded when he gets out of hand. If Ron has any
>chance for survival in these books, it’s Hermione.
>Consider the exchange in GoF after the Second Task of
>the Tournament, when Ron’s penchant for exaggeration
>and ego-stroking is exaserbated by the attention he
>gains as an underwater hostage: “Harry noticed that Ron’s 
>version of events changed
>subtly with every retelling…. 
> ‘What were you going to do, snore at them?’ said
>Hermione waspishly…. Ron’s ears went red, and thereafter,
> he reverted to the bewitched sleep version of events.” (509-10)

>Hermione’s pointed criticism, bursts his absurd
>balloon and help Ron realize how asinine he’s being.
>In this sense, Hermione exerts a great deal of
>influence over Ron. It’s my belief that a relationship
>with Hermione will redeem Ron and save him from his
>own demons.

Judy responds:
   In this case it did bring him to his senses, but consider one of 
JKR’s underlying unarticulated philosophies about learning and 
personal development: She seems to believe that self-discovery, 
wherein students test the limits of their own abilities and make 
their own choices, is the way we learn best.  If we follow the 
reasoning that the Weasleys are the model and justify that Ron needs 
Hermione to nag him into becoming the best that he can be, there 
should be canon examples to show that Mrs. Weasley’s fits of anger 
are somehow beneficial.  Has Arthur Weasley's fascination with 
muggle artifacts been curbed by his wife’s arguments?  Not a 
chance.  Did the twins see the error of their ways after their 
mother blasted them out, and stop their efforts to establish their 
joke shop? Not a snowflake's chance in Hell.  Did Ron, after he 
received the howler, behave like an angel for the rest of the term 
and endeavor to keep "all his toes in line?"   Don't think so.  Do 
any of the teachers at Hogwarts nag their students into becoming the 
best that they can be?  Not a one-- although it may be argued that 
Snape tries to insult his students into better performance.  Ron 
finds his best self in critical situations when he has no choice but 
to perform.  Everything he needs to succeed seems to be within him 
already.  He’s a brilliant strategist, he's witty, and brave and 
these qualities come out from time to time when they are needed. Ron 
is just lazy (typical boy) and has not yet discovered his own worth. 
He is too busy focusing on his limitations -- especially monetary 
ones -- to know the power he commands.  

Observations in Favor of an H/H Relationship:

     You stated that Hermione, in PS/SS (Chap. 6 p.110 US 
paperback), comes into Ron and Harry’s train car and points out that 
Ron has dirt on his nose just as his mother did on the platform.  
IMHO this establishes Hermione as a mother, a nagging mother, rather 
than a potential partner.  (This is very typical behavior among 
bright little girls, believe me.  I can’t tell you how many female 
students I’ve had who just HAD to mother everyone.)  Of course, 
Hermione is growing up and the mothering is less and less pronounced 
as she ages, but there are subtle differences in the WAY she 
mothers.  When she talks to Neville--attempts to help him--she is 
gentle and reassuring, when she talks to Ron, she nearly always 
snippy and critical except when she is trying to comfort him about 
being poor.  (This is something he has no control over.) 
     Now, regard how she and Harry interact and consider, too, how 
much of a history of shared experiences they are developing.  The 
difference between R/H and H/H experiences is so subtle, it's almost 
not noticeable at first because most of the time they are a Trio, 
but it is much clearer and stronger by GoF. H/H's relationship is 
based on mutual respect. (All references are from American paperback 
editions of the novels)
--In SS Ch. 10, p. 172, It's Harry who is concerned about Hermione 
in the girl's room with the troll loose in the school. By saving 
her, they all have the shared experience that officially forms the 
Trio.
--In SS Ch. 13, p. 224, Hermione is so intent upon watching Harry 
during a Quidditch match--making certain he is OK, she doesn't even 
notice that Ron and Malfoy are rolling about on the floor of the 
stands fighting.
--In SS Ch. 16, p. 287, Ron is injured, Hermione has just solved 
Snape's potions puzzle. Harry is about to go face what lies beyond 
the fire.  Hermione throws her arms around him (to his boyish 
embarrassment) and tells him he is a great wizard.  As far as we can 
tell from the book, Harry hadn't demonstrated any particular 
greatness except in his flying, but Hermione is, even at this age, 
very perceptive of his latent abilities. He counters with "not as 
good as you." This exchange, I believe, is the first evidence that 
they share a true mutual respect for each other.
--In CoS, there is a growing bond between the three friends, 
obviously, but notice in Ch. 18 p.339, that Hermione runs towards 
Harry shouting "you solved it, you solved it!" as soon as she is 
revived.  Harry thinks it's one of the best things that happened 
that night. There were a lot of ways JKR could have written 
Hermione's revival.
--In PoA, Although Harry sides with Ron in the Scabbers/Crookshanks 
kafuffle, he is also sympathetic towards Hermione.  By Ch. 21, Ron 
is injured, and Harry and Hermione must carry out a plan using a 
time-turner, to rescue Buckbeak and Black.  Notice their brief 
discussion/argument on Pp.398-399.  They really listen to each other 
and Harry at first acquiesces to Hermione's greater understanding of 
time-turners, because he trusts her judgement. Later, when the 
Hermione on the other side of the lake is overwhelmed by the 
Dementors, and Harry's instincts tell him to ignore what Hermione 
had just told him and he summons the powerful patronus to save them 
both, he becomes Hermione's mythical "champion."  It's a classic 
scene from Tales of King Arthur that comes next, with a JKR twist, 
of course.  The hero and heroine both ride off on the noble steed 
(Buckbeak).  The difference here from Harry’s rescue of Ginny is 
that the hero and heroine are three-dimensional individuals who have 
made comparable contributions to their mutual success (Harry never 
could have saved them without Hermione) and this becomes a shared 
experience.  
Now, in GoF Hermione and Harry's relationship becomes the most 
spouse/partner-like to date and I believe JKR is perhaps, 
foreshadowing a future relationship. 
--GoF Ch. 8, p.103-104  You are aware of this scene, I believe.  
Harry and Ron, both entranced by the dancing Veela are up on the 
edge of the box ready to jump.  Their seats are next to each other, 
but Hermione reaches up and pulls only Harry back down into his 
seat.  "Honestly," she says. (Sounds rather spouse-like to me)
--GoF Ch.10, p.150  They have all just returned from the World Cup 
and Harry is anxious about hearing back from Sirius.  Ron suggests 
playing Quidditch and trying out the Wronski Feint.
	"Ron," said Hermione, in an I-don’t-think-you’re-being-very-
sensitive sort of voice, "Harry doesn't want to play Quidditch right 
now...He's worried, and he's tired...we all need to go to bed..."
	"Yeah, I want to play Quidditch," Harry said suddenly.
If this is not a take on the classic ‘wife trying to speak for her 
husband’ scenario, I don’t know what is.  I don't know if you're 
married, but whenever wives do that, they are invariably wrong. It's 
a cute bit of humor.
--GoF Ch. 14, p. 210
(Hermione) "Been in the--"
	"Library" Harry finished her sentence for her.
Of course, since Hermione is nearly always in the library when she 
goes missing, it was not much of a stretch for him to guess that.  
But here we have Harry finishing her sentences for her.  
(Spouse/partner-like, I think)
--GoF Ch. 14, p. 224  Hermione begins S.P.E.W. (I'm guessing you’re 
American because you quote from the American paperbacks, so I 
thought I'd let you know that spew in Britain means vomit)  Harry 
behaves as any proper husband/male companion knows he should if the 
female is bent on something he finds ridiculous--Harry feigns 
interest, keeps his mouth shut and looks for the first legitimate 
diversion.  His is Hedwig’s return. Ron, being slower on the uptake 
about females, has too much to say--all of it wrong.

--GoF Ch. 18, Hermione is the only one of Harry's friends who 
believes he is innocent of putting his name in the Goblet.  
Moreover, she knows he doesn't want to face people at breakfast and 
brings him toast.  (She seems to understand him as even his best 
buddy, Ron, does not.)  Hermione moreover works toward getting them 
back together, because she knows Harry is miserable without Ron. 
(This is an allusion, I believe, to the idea of the 'faithful, 
supportive spouse.') 
--GoF Ch. 20, Pp.345-347 Hermione is up with Harry until 2 A.M. 
helping him learn the summoning charm. Then gives him words of 
confidence on p. 348 which he seems to repeat to assure himself that 
he will indeed be fine. 
GoF Ch. 23, p. 414  At the Yule Ball, Harry recognizes the glamorous 
Hermione right away, but Ron walks right past her.
--GoF Ch.26, p.481  This may or may not be a bit of wicked JKR 
foreshadowing humor.  You find this kind of device in Shakespeare 
all the time.  Harry, Ron and Hermione are in Charms Class 
practicing the Banishing Charm.  Ron's cushions are going every 
where.  Hermione's are all going right into a box set up as a 
target.  "I just want to know what Snape did with his first chance 
if this is his second one," said Harry grimly, and his cushion, to 
his very great surprise, flew straight across the room and landed 
neatly on top of Hermione's.   I believe this may be a subtle sexual 
metaphor, perhaps not to mean literally that the characters will 
become carnal, of course, but perhaps a reference to something in 
the future about raging adolescent hormones and Harry's surprise 
that he has those kinds of feelings for Hermione.  Had JKR meant 
ONLY that Harry got the charm right, I think she would have stated 
it in quite a different way, and why would he be surprised he had 
managed it? He'd done much more complicated magic when he was 
younger. Have you any thoughts on this?  I do read a lot of 
Shakespeare and his works are full of sexual metaphors.  Perhaps I'm 
over reaching, but JKR did mention once that she put a few things 
into her books that she wondered how they got past the censors.

--GoF Ch. 27, p. 511  (Story) After the Rita Skeeter story 
entitled "Harry Potter’s Secret Heartache," Harry, on at least two 
occasions denies that Hermione’s his girlfriend.  I think JKR might 
be engaging in verbal irony (the author saying one thing but meaning 
another)  Harry denies it to Krum Ch. 28, p. 552,  and to Mrs. 
Weasley, Ch. 31, p.619.
After all Harry had gone through during the school year, and with 
all they had gone through together, it seemed very natural for 
Hermione to kiss Harry at the end of GoF.  
And, I also found this in one of JKR’s interviews: (Note: This is 
not a direct JKR quote, but it is quoted directly from the article)  
*Harry has already been interested in a "quidditch" team-mate in 
Harry Potter And The Goblet Of Fire, the fourth book in the series - 
but will now develop more of an interest in Hermione, one of his 
best friends.*  Interview taken from BBC News, Friday, 28 December, 
2001.  
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/1726528.stm

NOTE: This was not the only interview that made this statement.  
I'm trying to keep my mind open since the interviewers might have 
added that bit without JKR's approval, but it seems to me she is 
slowly laying the groundwork for an eventual H/H relationship that 
appears as logical as Voldemort's return to power.  All of us, I 
think, are so besotted with Hollywood, that we often forget that 
real love is based on more than just the sparks of physical 
attraction-- mutual respect and tolerance for the other’s 
differences and a knowledge of total acceptance by the other, for 
instance.  Real love often does not come in with a blast of 
fireworks, sometimes it just creeps up on you, but that does not 
mean it is any less powerful.  Let us not forget, too, that JKR has 
said "Harry needs Hermione, desperately."  Perhaps she means in 
addition to his needing her to help him fight Voldemort, that he 
needs her in other ways, too.  You pointed out their points of 
compatability so very well.

     In another interview or online chat, which I could not find, 
JKR does mentions that there was something going on between Ron and 
Hermione too, but that Ron was being a typical boy.  It is blatantly 
obvious that Ron is developing an interest in her, perhaps she in 
him as well, and there may be some kind of adolescent triangle in 
the making.  The fact remains, however, that Ron and Hermione have 
not established any bond beyond the Trio and there doesn’t seem to 
be much mutual respect or groundwork yet for a real relationship. 
Ron finds Hermione irritatingly brilliant and I think she sees him 
as unperceptive and not making the most of his considerable 
abilities.  But these are children still and there are still three 
books to go.  However, IMHO, the only way I can see Harry and 
Hermione not eventually ending up together is if Harry dies at the 
end as a classic sacrificial hero, or if he is so scarred by his 
experiences with Voldemort in the magical world, that he needs time 
away from everything and everyone to mend emotionally.  This happens 
to Frodo Baggins in LOTR when he goes off to the Blessed Realm with 
the elves.  
I know SHIPS have been discussed before, but, 
I don't think, from this angle.  And perhaps I'm taking too much of 
an English Literature approach.  Have you (or anyone else) any 
additional ideas or observations?
Make a long post if you must.  I’ll get a cup of tea and read it.
--Judy