[HPforGrownups] Voldemort & Lily (was: Whose prophecy?)

[Troels Forchhammer]

No: HPFGUIDX 54667

At 21:55 31-03-03 +0000, Steve wrote:
 > "Kathryn Cawte" <kcawte at b...> wrote:
 >>

[The meaning of sacrifice]

 >> K - (Kathryn):
 >>
 >> But Harry's protection came from Lily giving her life to protect
 >> him - if there had been no possibility of Lily being spared then I
 >> don't see how that would work.

Steve:
 >
 > It was the fact that she chose to stand and fight to the death
 > rather than yeild. Not yeild to Voldemort's offer, but to not
 > yeild in any way, shape, or form under any circumstances.
<snip>
 > It's this fierce determination to protect Harry, to love another life,
 > Harry's, more than you love your own, that left a lingering protection
 > in Harry. It was the fact that she chose to stand and fight to the
 > death rather than yeild; to fight against hopeless odd, to defend even
 > when no defense was possible.

How many children would have been equally protected throughout
Voldemort's eleven year reign of terror?
Can you really make yourself believe that other /all/ other
mothers just let Voldemort and his Death Eaters kill their
children before being killed themselves (do you have children?)

It is made abundantly clear - by both Dumbledore and Voldemort
himself - that it was because Lily died to protect Harry that he
was in the end protected from Voldemort's Killing curse, and if
her death was inescapable anyway, then this situation would not
only negate the sacrifice, but it would also make it just one
more family killed by Voldemort - nothing special!

But we /know/ that something special happened.
Despite your attempt to dismiss Harry's Dementor-awakened
memories in PoA we /do/ hear Voldemort urging Lily to stand
aside - more than once even. Why should he bother which one he
killed first if he intended to kill them both? Why waste the time
and effort of trying to make Lily stand aside if he ends up
killing her anyway?
And when it is confirmed by Voldemort's own statements that Lily
needed not die then why doubt the evidence of the books?

 >> Kathryn continues:
 >>
 >> There is no suggestion that *James'* sacrifice gave Harry any
 >> measure of protection even though he clearly made a decision to
 >> stay and fight rather than try and run.
 >
 > bboy_mn:
 > I can't agree with the statement the Jame's sacrifice gave Harry NO
 > protection.

You may choose not to agree with it, but there is absolutely no
indication in canon that he bought his wife and son anything but
a little time.

<snip>

 >> Kathryn continues:
 >>
 >>  Whether we could ever  seriously expect a parent to accept such an
 >> offer is totally irrelevent to whether the offer is made seriously.
 >>
 >
 > bboy_mn:
 >
 > You are ASSUMING that 'step aside' is an offer, and not a command;
 > just as I am assuming that it is indeed a command given to someone who
 > stands between Voldemort and his objective.
 >
 > Did he ask her to step aside, or did he tell her to step aside?

That is utterly irrelevant!
He tried to make her step aside when there was no reason why he
should waste his breath on it if he had already decided to use it
for a Killing curse for her.

He spends far more time arguing with Lily (PoA-9) than it would
have taken him to just cast the curse (which he does in the end
anyway) - so why spend that time? /Especially/ if she is
insignificant.

<snip>

Troels