Voldemort & Lily (was: Whose prophecy?)

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 54679

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer
<t.forch at m...> wrote:
> At 21:55 31-03-03 +0000, Steve wrote:
>  > "Kathryn Cawte" <kcawte at b...> wrote:
>  >>
> 
> [The meaning of sacrifice]
> 
>  >> K - (Kathryn):
>  >>
>  >> But Harry's protection came from Lily giving her life to protect
>  >> him - if there had been no possibility of Lily being spared then
>  >> I don't see how that would work.
> 
> Steve:
> >
> > It was the fact that she chose to stand and fight to the death
> > rather than yeild ... in any way, shape, or form under any 
> >circumstances.
> <snip>
> > It's this fierce determination to protect Harry, to love another 
> > life, Harry's, more than you love your own, that left a lingering 
> > protection ...
> >

> Troels continues: 
> 
> How many children would have been equally protected throughout
> Voldemort's eleven year reign of terror? ...
>

bboy_mn:
Not many I'm thinking. I really don't see that many possible cases
where Voldemort came to a wizard's house with the single minded
purpose of killing one of the kids. Any kids killed would probably
fall into what is referred to as 'collateral damage'.

While I'm sure kids were killed, we see from the story that adults
were killed more often. If and when kids were killed it was probably
an act of terror, and parent were give little or no opportunity to
protect them.


> Troels continues: 
> 
> It is made abundantly clear - by both Dumbledore and Voldemort
> himself - that it was because Lily died to protect Harry that he
> was in the end protected from Voldemort's Killing curse, ...
> 

bboy_mn:
Can't argue with that.


> Troels continues: 
>
> ... and if her death was inescapable anyway, then this situation 
> would not only negate the sacrifice, but it would also make it just 
> one more family killed by Voldemort - nothing special!
> 

bboy_mn:

Can argue with that. Why does it negate the sacrific? 

You seem to have overlooked a word I used repeatedly and with some
attempts at emphasis; that word is 'insignificant'. Whether Lily lived
or die was insignificant to Voldemort. In that sense, Lily could have
been spared. Since her death had no significants, not only was there
no need to kill her, but there was no need to deal with her at all.
That is, until she became an annoyance and an obstical between
Voldemort and his single minded objective, Harry. 

If Lily had cowered in the corner paralyzed by fear, she could
probably have lived. But she didn't she chose to stand and fight. She
chose, as I said before, to put the value of the life of another
person above the value of her own life.

Even if she hadn't gotten in the way, her life was still
insignificant. Kill her or nor kill her, it's all the same to
Voldemort. After killing Harry, Voldemort may have killed Lily on his
way out as casually as he would brush some lint off of his robes, or
he may have walked away and ignore her completely. 

So the point I dispute is not whether Lily would or wouldn't have been
 killed but whether Voldemort actually offered to spare her. I say he
did not offer to spare her. When he said 'step aside', he was not
saing, 'step aside and I will spare you', he was, in his polite
British way, saying, 'Get the hell out of my way, I've go more
important things to do than screw around with you'. 

So her life or death was of no consequence, and in that sense, she
could have (that's 'could have' not 'would have') been spared. It was
this lack of significants to Lily's life that could have spared her,
not Voldemort command to get the hell out of the way. This was not a
benevolent offer on Voldemort's part. 
 


> Troels continues: 
> And when it is confirmed by Voldemort's own statements that Lily
> needed not die then why doubt the evidence of the books?
> 

bboy_mn:
The fact that she /needn't/ have died is no a guarantee that Voldemort
would have spare her, only that her life was, as I've said too many
times already, of no significants.



>  >> Kathryn continues:
>  >>
>  >> There is no suggestion that *James'* sacrifice gave Harry any
>  >> measure of protection even though he clearly made a decision to
>  >> stay and fight rather than try and run.
>  >
>  > bboy_mn:
>  > I can't agree with the statement the Jame's sacrifice gave Harry
>  > NO protection.
> 
> You may choose not to agree with it, but there is absolutely no
> indication in canon that he bought his wife and son anything but
> a little time.
> 

bboy_mn:

My problem here is with your emphatic use of the word 'absolutely'.
There is very little indication that James sacrifice was of primary
importance in the protection, but I can't accept 'absolutely no
indication in canon' as an acceptable statement.

I could present canon what weakens your postion, although, I admit I
can't present anything that disproves it. So, I will acknowledge that
you have a very strong position, I just can't bring myself to accept
that you have an absolute position. I think if people weighed in on
the value of James contribution to Harry protection, you would find a
range of interpretations.


> >
> > bboy_mn originally said:
> >
> > You are ASSUMING that 'step aside' is an offer, and not a 
> > command; just as I am assuming that it is indeed a command given 
> > to someone who stands between Voldemort and his objective.
> >


> Troels continues: 
> 
> That is utterly irrelevant!
> He tried to make her step aside when there was no reason why he
> should waste his breath on it if he had already decided to use it
> for a Killing curse for her.
> 
> He spends far more time arguing with Lily (PoA-9) than it would
> have taken him to just cast the curse (which he does in the end
> anyway) - so why spend that time? /Especially/ if she is
> insignificant.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Troels

bboy_mn:
I already covered most of this earlier in this post. Voldemort has one
single minded purpose; one highly focused objective, everything else
is irrelevant. Lily is irrelevant so he tells her to get out of the
way. When she refuses, he kills her and moves on to his primary objective.

Others have pointed out that Voldemort doesn't have the greatest
attitude towards women. He is very dismissive of them, and that
attitude is clear reflected in his encounter with Lily. She is someone
to be dismissed; again insignificant. When she makes herself
significant, he kills her and moves on.

Again, my primary point is that Voldemort is not making an offering to
spare Lily for any special reason, or by his good graces, or as an act
of benevolence, or as a favor to one of his cronies. He simply doesn't
care about her until she forces him to care, then he kills her.

"step aside" = "get out of the way"

There is a sweet sweet irony here. The very thing that Voldemort
dismissed as irrelevant, insignificant, and inconsequential ended up
being the very thing that destroyed him. To offer to spare Lily gives
her significants and destroys that sweet sweet irony.

Just my thoughts.

bboy_mn