[HPforGrownups] Re: honorifics

[The Fox]

No: HPFGUIDX 55816

From: "Steve" <bboy_mn at yahoo.com>
>Fox wrote:

>>I can think of no situation in which an English-speaking woman married to 
>>an English-speaking man whose last name was Smith would be called "Madam 
>>Smith".
>
>Use of the word 'Madam' has all but vanished in the real world. As a 
>courtesy reference, the 'D' has been dropped from 'madam' and on the rare 
>occassions when it is used, it comes out as "ma'am" as in "Yes sir" and 
>"yes ma'am".

Exactly.  Never with a proper name -- only on its own.

>The only situation I can think of, would be a very formal and very rich 
>household in which the butler might say something like "Madam Smith will 
>see you now".

I find that highly unlikely.  The handful of families I've known who had 
that kind of money (and houses where the doorbell only rang in the pantry, 
that kind of thing) have been headed by a Mr. and Mrs., just like everybody 
else.

>>But the female students in the wizarding world are never called "Miss 
>>Hermione" and "Miss Penelope".
>
>The key is 'in general usage'. In real life, it is common for the term 
>"Miss" to be used this way. It is most common, when a person is very 
>familiar with the young girl being addressed, but still wants to add a 
>friendly sense of formality. In practical use, this is or at least, was 
>very common in the southern US. It would also be common among servants of 
>the friendly but formal rich. The maid, or butler might refer to the 
>youngest daughter of the house as Miss Sally.

It's not precisely common here any longer, but it's certainly more common 
than it is elsewhere.  Calling an elementary school teacher (or similar 
prominent adult in a small child's life) Miss Hermione is less formal than 
calling her Miss Granger.

>I still say the distinction is age and marital status. You know you are old 
>when waiters and clerks start referring to you as Madam instead of Miss.

In my experience, waiters and clerks start calling female customers "ma'am" 
(never "madam") instead of "miss" when they're old enough to conduct their 
business on their own, independent of their mothers.  I've been "ma'am" 
since I was about fourteen -- hardly old.  :-)

Conversely, a lot of waitresses continue to be "miss" (with no last name) 
until they're too old to work any more.  In general, "ma'am" outranks 
"miss", so "miss" is in a serving position and "ma'am" is the one being 
served.

>- Marital Status - I see this being used as a term of respect for old 
>spinsters. Perhaps older unmarried women gain the title as they are the 
>default matriarch of their household.

I'm having a hard time reconciling that (to say nothing of "spinster" -- 
god, does anybody use that word any more? [g]) with this:

>Madam, among other things, refers to the matriarch of a household. It could 
>be the wife of a husband and wife pair, or it could be the live-in mother 
>or live-in mother-in-law.

There is no matriarch if there's no family for her to head up.  So an 
unmarried woman living alone isn't a matriarch -- she's just a single woman. 
  I don't see how the honorific "Madam" (as opposed to the courtesy title 
"ma'am") can be reserved for both spinsters and matriarchs.

>As applied to the wizard world and Hogwarts, I think Madam Pince, Madam 
>Hooch, and Madam Pomfrey are all older women who have no academic 
>credentials, and who do not teach acedemic subjects, who are either 
>unmarried and therefore need a title more dignified and respectful than 
>Miss

Whoa, hold on.  Since when is "Miss" (capital letter, with a surname) 
undignified?  I imagine Miss Manners, Miss Prism, and Miss Jean Brodie (the 
antecedent of our dear Professor McGonagall [g]) would have a couple of 
things to say about that.  Miss LastName is a perfectly respectable, correct 
way to address an unmarried adult woman.

>but since they are unmarried, wouldn't be called Mrs. Or, as you 
>sugggested, are using a title the hides their marital status. Personally, 
>I'm voting for old and unmarried.

On what basis?  We know Mrs. Weasley and Mrs. Diggory and Mrs. Malfoy are 
married, but we have no way of knowing anything one way or the other about 
any of the other witches.

Fox

...........
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Luke 6:37
...
"You want to tempt
the wrath of the whatever
from high atop the thing?"
-- West Wing
...
Come on, Nature
Just because I don't feel weak
Don't mean I feel so strong.
-- the Proclaimers
..............................

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