Harry's POV was Snape is NOT Sexy

[ecceq]

No: HPFGUIDX 56557

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severin_szaltis" 
<severin_szaltis at y...> wrote:

SS: Sure, the books are Harry centric and we follow Harry about, but 
it isn't him
describing things. As something happens it is related to the reader, 
but not
by Harry. It is athough he's carrying a video cam about and we get to 
see what
is recorded by it. 

SS: As I said elsewhere the difference between a Limited Narrator POV 
and 
a First Person Narrative can at times be a subtle one, but there is a 
difference. Harry is not doing the describing and we cannot assume a 
Harry bias with every description.

I, EcceQ jump into the fray with:-

I don't go along with everything you say SS, but I do agree that 
there are subtle differences between the POV character and the 
narrator that are not always recognised.  

People often use these technical literary terms in a confusing way 
that suggests 'limited point of view' and 'first-person point of 
view' mean the same thing and/or are interchangeable.  Whether this 
is because people misunderstand the terms or not I wouldn't like to 
guess, but this blurring of distinction by imprecise use of the terms 
can lead to a misinterpretation of text and meaning.  And more 
importantly it means the person using the terms doesn't get their 
meaning across to as many people as they might.

DrMM: As for the books description of Snape, remember that the books 
are 
told from Harry's POV. Harry doesn't like Snape so he'll exaggerate 
Snape's physical characteristics. 

Irene: Don't forget it's a description by Harry. 

Abigail: No one suggested that the books were a first person 
narrative, which is
certainly not the only kind of narrative that allows us to see the 
world
through a particular person's eyes. Harry Potter is written in Third 
Person
Restricted, which means that while the narrative is indeed written in 
the third
person, it tells us only what a particular person - Harry - is seeing 
or
feeling. 

Abigail: It may be true that Harry's dislike of
Snape is coloring his perception, and I would guess that this might 
have
started happening soon after the two met, but Harry's unpleasant 
descriptions
of Snape begin before Snape makes his dislike clear. When Harry first 
sees
Snape at Hogwarts, and during the first Potions lesson, he has no
preconceptions and no bias against Snape, and yet he still describes 
him as
physically unappealing. 

I, EcceQ:  I think that the above quotes from this thread clearly 
illustrate how the terms are used confusingly and perhaps how they 
are being misunderstood.  Especially the last two; on the one hand it 
is said that the books are written from a limited person point of 
view (or third person restricted) but on the other it is also said 
that Harry is making the descriptions. Both cannot be true or 
literary critics would not need the distinction between first-person 
point of view and limited person point of view.  

1) In a literal sense a POV is just what can be seen from a specific 
point by a specific person.  So if I stood on a cliff and looked out 
to sea with someone stood directly behind me resting their head on my 
shoulder, then it could be said that they are viewing the scene from 
my POV.  They see what I see, of course in this case I also see what 
they see but the analogy serves well enough.

2) In a literary sense a POV can mean both the above and a mental 
attitude/an opinion of a specific person.  

EcceQ stood on the cliff top looking down at the dangerous raging 
swell below [POV as in 1].  EcceQ felt it's power and saw how 
dangerous it was for the people trapped below [POV as in 2] 

Both senses are found in the Harry Potter books, sometimes we know 
his mental attitude sometimes we only see what he sees.  Harry never 
speaks directly to the reader, what he sees and his thoughts, words, 
actions and the words and actions of other characters are related to 
us by the narrator.  

Harry never describes Snape to the reader and the narrator never (or 
rarely) reports a description in either Harry's thoughts or words. We 
see what Harry sees, but getting his point of view in this way does 
not mean that we are also getting his mental attitude.  The story is 
told in the third person and as such the narrator comes between the 
reader and the POV character, we are therefore distanced from Harry 
and his mental attitude to some extent. If this was not the case then 
literary critics would not need to distinguish between limited point 
of view and first-person narrative.   

Diana Williams: We only
see the things that Harry sees, and we see them through Harry's eyes -
 more
as if he is sketching out what he sees or writing about it in his 
diary
rather than using a videocamera. ... So the descriptions of Snape are 
likewise influenced by the fact that
we're seeing him through Harry's "sketches" of him.  

I, EcceQ: The distance between limited point of view narrator and the 
POV character is not as great as with an omniscient point of view 
narrator and their characters POVs, but it is there. 

We read the narrators words, the narrators descriptions, not 
Harry's.  They are descriptions of what Harry sees, but because it is 
a third person not Harry himself giving the description there has 
been a separation from what Harry sees and Harry's mental attitude. 
As such Harry's influence on the descriptions has been restricted.

A limited point of view narrator can and will at times separate what 
Harry sees from 'his' mental attitude.  So, although it is true that 
with a limited point of view, we are not (as a rule) getting the 
narrator's POV or mental attitude, we mustn't take that to mean that 
every description is influenced by Harry's mental attitude.  The 
narrators influence must not be disregarded just because they are a 
limited narrator.

EcceQ - hoping she's made her first post in the right way.