Is Snape unfair with House Points? (WAS Re: Teacher Ratings (Was: Why I hate Hag

[Tom Wall]

No: HPFGUIDX 56635

Bill quoted PoA:
'Please, sir,' said Hermione, whose hand was still in the air, 'the 
werewolf differs from the true wolf in several small ways. The 
snout of the werewolf -'

'That is the second time you have spoken out of turn, Miss 
Granger,' said Snape cooly. 'Five more points from Gryffindor for 
being an insufferable know-it-all.'


Mel wrote:
I'd have taken ten....

Then Mel wrote:
Say what you want, Snape told Hermione exactly what he was going to 
do and Why, then did it.


pip!squeak added:
Hermione's a problem student - a problem because she is *so* bright, 
she's generally well ahead of the other students. And a problem 
because she isn't willing to let the teacher teach the lesson their 
way. She does it to Snape, she does it to Lupin, and she's probably 
done it to every other teacher.


I reply:
Agreed, and that's a great way to say it, Pip. 

Hermione *is* a problem student. Slightly OT, she reminds me a little 
bit of the character Tracy Flick from the book/movie `Election,' 
although granted, I don't think of Hermione as being as deranged as 
Tracy comes off in the film.

My point was, regarding Bill's summation of Snape's teacher-ranking 
and his reference to Snape's consummate love of point-taking, that 
there is no canon to suggest that he does so unfairly, except for 
HHR's perspective that any punishments they are subjected to are 
unfair. 

Even when they break rules, it's difficult to find a situation where 
one of them says (of themselves): "Yes, I broke the rules, and I 
deserve this punishment." That's not a eleven-year-old thing to do. I 
hated being punished when I was eleven, so I can completely identify. 
That doesn't change the fact that they *are* breaking rules.

So, every instance that I can find of point-taking on Snape's part is 
the result of actual rule-breaking on the Trio's. In a sense, Snape's 
like the 'bad-parent,' and Dumbledore's like the 'good-parent.' And 
it must be noted here, we've never seen Dumbledore take points from 
HHR either, despite the fact that he's caught Harry more than once in 
rule-breaking situations.

As Mel pointed out, in this case, it's Hermione who was in violation 
of Snape's order to be quiet. She ignored what he told her. So she 
paid the consequences. She was the same way in our first classroom 
encounter with Snape:

"Hermione stretched her hand as high into the air as it would go 
without her leaving her seat." (PS/SS, US paperback, Ch.8, 137)

And as Pip pointed out, again with Lupin in PoA:

"Trying to answer a question with Hermione next to him, bobbing up 
and down on the balls of her feet with her hand in the air, was very 
off-putting, but Harry had a go." (PoA, US paperback, Ch.7, 134)

I might also point out that, as far as Snape goes, I concede that, to 
the readership and HHR, it would honestly appear that he takes more 
points from Gryffindor than the other houses. Totally, one-hundred-
percent agreed on that – it does appear that way. But there's a 
reason: 

The Gryffindors have Potions with the Slytherins. 

We don't technically get to *see* what Snape does with the other 
houses most of the time, because our main characters don't have 
Potions class with them. In other words, it's rare to see Snape 
interacting with Hufflepuffs and Gryffindors. 

In Snape's defense, we do see Snape take points from two kids in GoF 
Ch.23 at the same time, and they're a Ravenclaw and a Hufflepuff. And 
by comparison, Hagrid certainly has his own bits of fun with Malfoy 
in Care of Magical Creatures.

Most importantly, if you take a good long look at the Gryffindors' 
behavior with Snape, they aren't particularly respectful of his 
position as a teacher. 

Even Dumbledore has to remind Harry to be respectful of Snape's 
postion in PS/SS, US paperback, Ch.17, p299:

"Quirrell said Snape –"
"*Professor* Snape, Harry."
"Yes, him –"
[emphasis is converted from italics]

And we see over and over again that whether or not the Trio *likes* 
Snape, they don't treat him with respect at all.

"This lesson began ten minutes ago, Potter, so I think we'll make it 
ten points from Gryffindor. Sit down."
But Harry didn't move.
"Where's Professor Lupin?" he said.
"He says he is feeling too ill to teach today," said Snape with a 
twisted smile. "I believe I told you to sit down?"
But Harry stayed where he was.
"What's wrong with him?"
Snape's black eyes glittered.
"Nothing life-threatening," he said, looking as though he wished it 
were. "Five more points from Gryffindor, and if I have to ask you to 
sit down again, it will be fifty."
(PoA, US paperback, Ch.9, 170)

Granted, from the readership's perspective, we know that Harry is 
concerned for Professor Lupin, and why: it's because HHR ridiculously 
suspect Snape of possibly `poisoning' Lupin, despite the fact that we 
find out later on that Snape's actually helping Lupin out.

"It was lucky, perhaps, that both Harry and Ron started shouting at 
Snape at the same time; lucky their voices echoed so much in the 
stone corridor, for in the confused din, it was impossible for him to 
hear exactly what they were calling him. He got the gist, however."
"Let[`s see," he said, in his silkiest voice. "Fifty points from 
Gryffindor and a detention each for Potter and Weasley. Now get 
inside, or it'll be a week's worth of detentions." (GoF, US 
paperback, Ch.18, 300)

I went through a public school system, and if anyone had started 
screaming vulgarities and insults at a teacher the way they do right 
here, those people might have gotten *worse* than detention. I'm 
thinking suspension, at least in my school. We had 3,600 kids in my 
high-school. The staff didn't tolerate that kind of behavior at *all.*

As it stands, they're in what appears to be a private school, so I'd 
imagine that the punishments would be worse in that case. I'd like to 
see what McGonagall would do to a student who spoke that way to her.

I understand that there's reason to not particularly like Snape. I, 
for one, am simultaneously intrigued by his mysterious character, and 
repulsed by his vicious tongue. However, as I pointed out before, 
it's not fair to extend that to Snape in general because we don't 
know enough. I'd also say that it's not fair to judge his teaching 
abilities in particular based on this. Just IMO.

We don't have any in-canon situations where Snape gives ridiculous 
amounts of points to a Slytherin student, as, say, Dumbledore does in 
PS/SS and CoS for the Trio. In fact, we don't see Slytherin students 
earning any points at all in canon, despite the fact that they're 
always strong contenders for the House Cup until Dumbledore awards 
the Gryffindors so many points so suddenly that they end up winning.

And, on the canon that we do have (I'm going to ignore the HHR 
perspective that Snape favors his own students, since it sounds like 
bitterness and suspicion to me, instead of being documented by any 
sort of facts,) Snape doesn't appear to be a total pushover when it 
comes to his own. In CoS, he says: 

"Most unfortunately, you are not in my House and the decision to 
expel you does not rest with me. I shall go and fetch the people who 
do have that happy power. You will wait here." (CoS, US paperback, 
Ch.5, 79)

META-POINT HERE: As we know, McGonagall does not expel Harry and Ron, 
a lucky side-effect of being the main characters of the story. It's 
totally unlikely that they'll get expelled from Hogwarts. I think we 
can all agree on this. So in that sense, I'm not surprised that they 
weren't expelled. But we have to remember here - HR aren't just 
breaking some Hogwarts rule. They're in voilation of WW *law.* So, as 
law-breakers, I'm inclined to think that it would have been fairest 
if they were, at minimum, suspended for that behavior.

Authorial intent aside, would Snape have actually expelled a student 
in his own House if a Slytherin had pulled this stunt with the flying 
car?

I bet he would. Most definitely.

So, in addition to having never in-canon given points to a Slytherin, 
and having taken points on-screen from the other three houses, and 
the fact that we don't really get to see Snape interact with the 
other three houses independently of Gryffindor (due to the nature of 
the story,) we also have this: 

Show me a situation where Snape takes points flippantly, for no 
reason whatsoever. 

I don't think we have any. I'm certain that he always cites 
specifically why he's taking the points. Except maybe for this:

Library books are not to be taken outside the school," said 
Snape. "Give it to me. Five points from Gryffindor."
"He's just made that rule up," Harry muttered angrily as Snape limped 
away.
(PS/SS, US paperback, Ch.11, 182)

So, for the sake of argument, this begs the question: *did* Snape 
make the rule up? I see no canon to support either side of the issue.

Frankly, even if it *is* a real rule, I can't see Harry and his 
friends caring about it anyways. Even if it *was* a real rule, I'd 
bet that they'd still have taken that book outside. 

After all, HHR break more rules than anyone else, as far as I can 
see. Maybe except for Fred and George. Maybe. And in the past, I 
think that James and his pals definitely had some fun outside of the 
rules, even beyond becoming illegal animagi. So, are HHR the biggest 
rule breakers EVER? Possibly. But they're got competition. As for the 
present, we certainly don't see anyone in Harry's year who even 
remotely compares – including the Slytherins.

HHR are chronic liars, HR fly the car illegally (against the *law*,) 
they break into Snape's office, brew illegal potions, drug Crabbe and 
Goyle, they sneak into the Slytherin common room (imagine how Harry'd 
react if he found out Malfoy'd been in the Gryffindor common-room,) 
they consistently use magic in the halls (we only see Draco do this 
once, by comparison,) frequently sneak around at night to see Hagrid, 
Harry sneaks off to Hogsmeade against the rules, they actually help 
Buckbeak and Sirius to escape in defiance of WW *law* (Dumbledore's 
suggestions notwithstanding,) and so on.

In fact, in contrast, you almost have to appreciate the way the 
Slytherins operate, such as when Draco tricks Harry into going to the 
trophy room at midnight in PS/SS Ch.9. This is the `cunning' that I 
associate with Slytherin House. They operate, for the most part, by 
manipulating the rules, instead of defiantly breaking them – not to 
say that they're squeaky-clean, just to point out that they appear to 
break the rules *less* than HHR.

And as much as I love HHR, that's just the kind of kids that they 
are – they're rule-breakers. And IMO, we just can't blame Snape for 
punishing them for breaking the rules. 

-Tom