[HPforGrownups] Re: Who's going to betray the Order?

[music4masses]

No: HPFGUIDX 75935


Well, this looks like a good ol' classic case of having to happily agree to 
disagree. This board wouldn't be any fun if that were never the case. I 
simply don't find Lupin's behavior suspicious, which isn't to say he 
doesn't make irresponsible decisions. I've never been too good at 
conspiracy theories, so maybe it's just me...

>Right, there are definitely explanations for Lupin's behavior which
>don't require him to be evil.  This may surprise you, but I
>personally would not bet money that Lupin is evil.  However, the
>circumstances are undoubtedly suspicious, and Lupin seems the most
>likely of all the choices to be the betrayer, IMHO.  Suppose that
>Lupin does kind of lose his wits when he sees his dead friend and his
>best friend's son chasing a convicted killer.  Why then is he so calm
>and collected when he shows up in the Shrieking Shack?  If, by then,
>he has re-collected his wits, then why doesn't he recall his mistake
>when talking about the potion, and when Snape reminds him?

I don't think Lupin lost his wits, did he? Seems like he was just in a rush 
to head of a nasty situation. He was still suspecting Sirius at that point. 
Then he realizes what happened. He's pretty calm and thoughtful throughout 
the book. Really, I think it boils down to plot. He had to forget his 
potion and  transform for Pettigrew to get away. He probably figured he 
could go back and take it, since the moon wasn't out when he left.


>I'm not really sure what your point is about the moon not being out
>when he originally heads for the shack... why would this make
>his "mistake" any less bone-headed?

It was still bone-headed, I agree. But it would've been easier to forgot in 
daylight than it would have if the moon was out, as that would be an 
obvious reminder. In his rush to follow Harry, he took monstrous (no pun 
intended) risk. He acknowledged it as being a potentially catastrophic 
error in judgment at the end of POA. However, I just can't see more in it 
than that. If he had taken the potion, Pettigrew would've been caught, 
Sirius saved, and what then.

>Again, there is a perfectly reasonable explanation for what happened
>which doesn't involve making Lupin evil.  But also again, the
>circumstances are suspicious.  Why do the dementors show up RIGHT
>after Lupin leaves?  Why do they attack Harry (Fudge is mystified as
>to why they do this)?  We don't know how people communicate with
>Dementors, but for the sake of simplicity, let's say it's like
>telepathy.  Lupin runs off, and once he's safely away, he tells the
>dementors where Sirius is, and to kill everyone with him as well.

Because that's how the story had to resolve itself. Harry had to fight the 
dementors to see his Patronus as a stag, etc. Since they had been hunting 
Sirius, I would think they'd know who he was in the open like that. Lupin 
wouldn't need to inform them. They may've been drawn by the ruckus. And 
Hermione was there with Harry right? It wasn't just Harry in danger. Fudge 
is a bit slow on the uptake generally. Harry was trying to protect Sirius, 
which Fudge couldn't know. Of course Harry got the attention of the 
dementors. They don't seem to care who else they get in the bargain. I 
wonder how a werewolf and a dementor would communicate. Lupin isn't Lupin 
as a werewolf. Why would a werewolf care about any of this? Can dementors 
be killed? I'll bet a werewolf would give it a good go.


>Another suspicious detail about the dementors: the other time they
>got "hungry" and converged on Harry's location was during the
>Hufflepuff quidditch match.  Lupin was a werewolf at this time too.
>Perhaps he was testing to see if the dementors would obey his
>instructions if he was in werewolf form?
>
> > Neither Harry nor Hermione see Lupin
> > talking to dementors before going down in the tunnel, or after.
>
>Right, because Harry realizes at the last second that they are in the
>exact location that Lupin is heading towards.  They run away, and
>never see what Lupin is doing at this point.

They were in the vicinity the first time, though. The dementors came from 
the lake side, not the Forbidden Forest, after Lupin fled. That's where 
they came at Sirius. They didn't see dementors in the forest later when 
they were hiding either that I remember. Lupin took off into the woods. In 
animal form, he'd be hungry first and foremost. Good thing Grawp wasn't in 
there yet or no more Remus.

> > Rowling is not
> > going to make the victim of discrimination and prejudice evil. Like
>another
> > poster said, it would almost be justifying the bigotry.
>
>Snape was the victim of much bullying while a kid at Hogwarts.  Now
>as a teacher, he bullies the kids around.
>
>The centaurs are the victims of discrimination and prejudice.  To
>counter this, they seperate themselves from humans and see themselves
>as superior to humans.
>
>In both cases the victim of discrimination becomes a practitioner of
>discrimination.  Rowling does not seem afraid to do this.


Too true, but all these folks demonstrated signs of prejudice themselves, 
especially the centaurs. Lupin doesn't do this. Respectfulness is part of 
his character. He even respects Snape, who isn't really evil--just mean. 
The centaurs may need attitude adjustments, but they're not really evil 
either.



>Don't forget that the reason James switched his secret-keeper from
>Sirius to Peter was because he and Sirius suspected Lupin!  If Lupin
>is exactly as he seems, then I would think he would be the LEAST
>likely choice to be the spy.  So they must have had some real good
>reasons for suspecting him!

The fact that all the characters, good and bad, are flawed to some degree 
is a great strength of Rowling's characterizations. Sirius regrets and 
apologizes for suspecting Lupin. Lupin firmly believed Sirius was a murder 
and Pettigrew a victim for years! Never gave Sirius the benefit of the 
doubt until the end of POA. Ditto Dumbledore. In a way, Sirius was right 
about Pettigrew--no one would suspect him. It was just for the wrong 
reason. Everyone else was fair game, including Lupin.

Just how I see it. Hey, no one is saying Kingsley is evil! I'll have to 
think on this... :-)
Have fun,
erin