Snape DE/spy status (WAS Snape and Redemption)

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 76172

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shirley" <shirley2allie at h...>
wrote:
> digger <altered.earth at n...> wrote:
> > This Snape DE status is really bugging me.
> > If we take it that Snape is the one "who has left me forever"
> > Voldemort's statement that "he will be killed" seems to imply 
> that Snape should be on all DE's hit list.
> > 
> > > 
> > > Quote:
> > > "One too cowardly to return...he will pay.  One, who I believe 
> has left me forever...he will be killed of course...and one who 
> remains my most faithful servant, and who has already reentered my 
> service.
> > 
> > How can Snape be the one who has left him forever, and "will be 
> killed" and at the same time be *Lucius Malfoy's lapdog*? 
> {{snip}} >>>>
> 
> 
> me (shirley):  

*Excellent* question!!  ....
> 
> [last week's post 75667, (I think):
> Three thoughts/questions (and my apologies if these have been 
> covered  in previous posts; I only joined about a week ago):
> 
> First, do we really *know* that it's Snape that LV is talking about 
> in the circle of DEs toward the end of Book 4? 
>

bboy_mn:
Process of reasonaable deduction. Who else could it be? True there
have been a variety of speculations about who it might be, but in the
end, none make as much sense as it being Snape.

One key essential aspect of Voldemort's statement is the use of the
word 'believe', that indicates an element of doubt. It implies that he
 thinks this person might have left him. 


> 
> Second, ... since Snape was the only one who suspected Quirrel of 
> being in league with LV in Book 1, is that how LV knows that Snape 
> is no longer with him (LV)? 
> 

bboy_mn:
Not quite; Snape suspects Quirrel but Snape has absolutely no way of
knowing that Voldemort is involved. How can Snape betray Voldemort in
this instance when he has no way of knowing Voldemort is there? And,
Snape doesn't give away and disloyalty to Voldemort; he doesn't say or
do anything to hint one way or another regarding his feelings. He does
try to stop Quirrel from getting the Stone, but anyone who knew
Quirrel and suspected him would have done the same. Who in there right
mind would believe that someone like Quirrel could be trusted with
something like the stone. Although, this does show some loyalty to
Dumbledore, that's reasonable since part of Snape's post VW1
(Voldemort War 1) cover is to appear to be reformed.

Since Voldemort did not reveal himself to Snape, he can have no reason
to believe that Snape was consciously acting against him.


> Third, I always thought that Snape, the spy, was still showing up at 
> LV's lair/hideout as himself - still a loyal DE - and using 
> Occlumency to keep LV from seeing that he was a spy. However, ... if
> LV knows  that Snape is no longer on his side, then is Snape 
> 

My theory has always been that Snape started out as a spy. Dumbledore
or circumstances convinced Snape to come over to the good side. In
order to do this safely, Snape convinced Voldemort that Snape could
give some worthwhile and verifiable but minor information to
Dumbledore and convince Dumbledore that he wanted to come over to the
good side, but in reality Snape would be spying on Dumbledore for
Voldemort. At least, that's the story he gave Voldemort. 

What Snape was going then was acting as a double agent. Dumbledore and
Voldemort were each convinced that Snape was working for them. In
reality Snape had come over to the good side.

Today, that is exactly the role Snape is playing. The only way
Voldemort would let Snape stay at Hogwarts and near Dumbledore is if
he was still convinnced that Snape was willing to continue spying for
him. That works our perfect for Dumbledore because now Snape has
access to imformation about Voldemort that he can give to Dumbledore.
He is still acting as a double agent; spying for both sides, but we
assume only truly loyal to Dumbledore.

> Shirley today (8-8-03):
> So, how can Snape possibly be the DE that LV referred to at the end 
> of GoF if he's still alive and kicking, as well as spying?  

See above. When Dumbledore sent Snape on his secret mission at the end
of GoF, I suspect Snape went to Malfoy and asked Malfoy to verify to
Voldemort that Snape had not betrayed him, and that like many of the
other Death Eaters, he was just biding his time waiting for Voldemort
to return. Malfoy made the introduction, Snape talked with Voldemort
and convinced him, that he was ready to re-enter his service and
continue spying on Dumbledore. That is what he did near the end of the
first Voldemort War, and that is the role he continues now.



> Does LV  know, in fact, that Snape isn't loyal to him after the 
> Quirrel  experiences?  

bboy_mn:

Again, see above. Snape has absolutely no knowledge that Voldemort is
involved, and therefore his actions can't be concieved as being
against Voldemort; that are exclusively against Quirrel.

>In what manner is Snape spying; I'm not sure he *can* 
> be a double-agent at this point? 
>Ooooh, this hurts my head!
> 
> Shirley

bboy_mn:
Again, see statements above.

I don't for even one second think that Voldemort welcomed Snape back
with a hug and a kiss. I'm sure Snape endured a few Cruciatus Curses.
One for his interference in the Socerer's Stone, and several others
just for good measure to remind him that any betray of Voldemort comes
at an extremely high price.

There have been many theories about what is going on with Snape but no
has even remotely come close to swaying be from my double agent spy
theory. Snape seems to have access to Voldemort, he seems to know
where Voldemort is, Voldemort would never allow this unless he thought
there was something in it for him. That something is believing Snape
is still his spy against Dumbledore.

The only other theory I had is that Snape is only in contact with
Malfoy, and it is Malfoy who is now playing both sides against the
middle. At least that seemed possible until Malfoy ended up in Prison.

So, unitl something better comes along, I firmly stick to my original
idea; Snape is a double agent.

bboy_mn