Defending Ron ? (was: Defending Ron (was Re: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditc

[aamonn2000]

No: HPFGUIDX 77615

JO serenadust wrote:
> AAm wrote (quoting me):
> > Jo Serenadust wrote : Well, now *I'm* offended! <Snip>

> Just to clarify, I was just kidding when I wrote that.  I'm not 
> *that* touchy, honest :--D.

If that may reassure you, same thing for me (^_^).

> You left out my <vbg> when you snipped.

Oops ! That was not intended. 

> <AAm : snip> Since you are apparently working from a translated 
> copy of GoF, it's hard to know exactly how the nuances come across, 
> so I can see how you may have a different impression of this 
> passage.

Yes, you're right. I definitely need to buy more original versions.
 
> AAm (I) continued:
> > OK, I have to admit that I may amplify things a little bit too 
> much, but Ron does not only harbour resentment against Harry simply 
> on account on what he considers being Harry's refusal to tell him 
> what really happened <AAm : snip> Definitely not. There is 
> something more, and that "something more" is described in the book. 
 
> Jo replied :
> My point is that there really isn't the "something more" you speak 
> of, IMO.  Can I ask you to go back and read messages 52038 and 
> 52039?  This is Dicentra's famous "Anatomy of a Rift" essay where 
> she does a spectacular job of dissecting this episode.  Please 
> don't be put off by the length, as it's very tightly and clearly  
> written, and IMO covers these points better than anyone else has, 
> before or since. It's truly a classic. (End of fangirly gushing 
> about Dicey's posts)

Your were kind enough to reread the end of the 17th chapter of GoF so 
I'll go and read these messages. Thus said, I cannot comment at depth 
on the "something more" point right now.
 
Jo serenadust quoted that part of my former message :
> Same thing with OoP : after his triumph as a Quidditch goal-keeper 
> he keeps talking about it again and again until the next day so that
> he isn't even aware of Harry and Hermione's unforgettable trip with 
> Hagrid into the forbidden forest. 

Jo serenadust replied : 
> <AAm : snip> I think he was entitled to spend a little time 
> enjoying his own. I was surprised at how quickly he dropped any 
> feelings of resentment and disappointment at their having missed 
> it, once they explained why.

I agree, I had the same impression but I think that H and H (and 
later on, Ron) were really really struck to hear not only that Hagrid 
had brought back a (tiny ? ) Giant with him from his mission for the 
Order but also that he was also asking them, *including Ron*, to take 
care of him. Maybe when you hear that a friend of yours who happens 
to be a half-giant asks you to take care of his half-brother 
(actually, a real giant) you may tend to forget everything including 
your quidditch life-time best performace :) .
And when I wrote that he wasn't even aware of what had happened, what 
I meant was this : he couldn't even stop speaking to let the two of 
them set forth the *deal* with Hagrid.
 
> <snip>
 
>  Me:
> > > He doesn't even really refuse to speak to him.  
 
> AAm: 
> > Hey, wait a minute. You really like Ron, don't you ?
 
> Me:
 
> Er...does it really show? ;-)

Hmmm...... I'd say just a lil' bit...

Jo serenadust said: 
> > > As for the assumption that Hermione is destined to be MoM, I 
> > > sincerely doubt that is likely unless the office is 
> > > automatically awarded to the witch or wizard with the most 
> > > NEWTS.  Her people skills and political instincts are not 
> > > nearly as well developed as her intellect. 

I missed the last bit of this passage so it's now time to respond. 
Hermione's political skills are well developped. One example taken in 
OoP. Who perfectly understands Umbridge's new teaching politics for 
Hogwarts ? Ron ? Harry ? Nope. The one... The only... Hermione !! 
See, for example, what professor McGanagall says to Harry (end of 
chapter twelve):
  ""Didn't you listen to DU's speech at the start-of-term feast ?"
  "Yes" said Harry . 'Yeah... she said... progress will be prohibited 
or... well, it means that... the MOM is trying to interfere at 
Hogwarts."
Professor McGonagall eyed him closely for a moment, then sniffed, 
walked around her desk and held open the door for him.
  "Well I'm glad you listen to Hermione Granger at any rate", she 
said, pointing him out of her office."
 
> > > Frankly, I can see Ron being MoM more easily than I can see 
Hermione in that 
> > > position, but it's purely speculative.

(I missed this one too) Ron (°_°) ?! No comment ;-) .
 
 
> AAm (I) responded: 
> > Now, *I* am offended. Hermione sometimes "offends" people (as we 
> > all happen to do ;-) ) but you cannot say that her "people skills 
> > are not nearly as well developped as her intellect". Not only is 
> > she always telling Harry and Ron why other people do behave the
> > way they do, but she also explains to the two of them how these 
> > people, and how they - R and H - are feeling. Of course, she 
> > sometimes acts like a bull in a china shop but she's becoming 
> > more and more full of empathy for everyone (I won't work out that 
> > precise point here but it would be something worth discussing at 
> > length IMO : Who is Hermione beyond the caricature ? Another 
> > topic coming soon ?).

> Now me (Jo serenadust):
> I really didn't mean to offend you, 

You didn't.

> but I do stand by my statement about Hermione's "people skills" vs 
> intellect.  Yes, she does a good (possibly "too good")
> job of explaining other people's behavior and 
> feelings, which makes her own poor people-handling all the more 
> amusing. 

I'd follow you and even say sometimes her job is "probably" too good.

> Do you really think she "empathises" with the house-elves, 
> or the centaurs?  

Frankly ? Yes I do. Sure she's still got to make a lot of progress, 
and she's sometimes a little bit tactless but at the same time I do 
believe her efforts are genuine (also remember that she had a hard 
time dealing with the centaurs in the FF parly because of the 
circumstances !). Not so many people in the WW are spending energy 
trying to understand the centaurs or the house-elves
  
> I really hoped to see her develop more empathy for the feelings of 
> others in OOP, but I didn't see any progress in this area.

Really. I must say that I did (and I read the UK version of OoP ;-D ).

> I do look forward to your "Hermione beyond the caricature" post.  I 
> think there's lots to explore there.

Thanks ! I'll have to work this out but it could take me some time 
because I have to finish an academic job first (something that 
shouln't prevent other people from posting on that particular 
subject : every idea and suggestion is welcome).
 
See you.
AAm (Hermione for Gov').