Harry and Christ (Was Re: veil/Ddore's cowardice? (longish)

[urghiggi]

No: HPFGUIDX 78141

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" <
feetmadeofclay at y...> wrote:
> 

> I think different things and believe different things.  And I have no 
> problem with HP being particularly Christian in is theological bent.  
> I merely wish it was a theme strung more obviously through the story 
> from the beginning.  I think it would have been more honest.
> 
> There is a big difference between drawing on magical traditions of 
> Christianity and drawing on a Jesus theme... ONe is a part of a 
> magical tradition - ie part of the point of the book and not 
> particularly deeply treated.  For instance Rowling allows Alchemy to 
> be part of the background.  The kids never use the stone.  But Harry 
> martying himself through his love is distinctly Christian.  
> 

Hi Golly -- well, we don't know for sure that Harry is going to martyr himself 
(which would make him a Christ figure for sure). As I mentioned elsewhere, 
I'm more inclined to think that he's everyman on a spiritual journey, in which 
case he could win in another way.

I do think themes consistent w/a Christian perspective are present in the 1st 4 
books as well, but somewhat less overt than in OoP. For instance the idea that 
death is not the end of the line (discussed w/reference to the Flamels in bk 1) 
is contrary to a number of belief/nonbelief systems but consistent with other 
belief systems, including (but not exclusive to) Christianity. The entire climax 
of CoS can be interpreted as allegorical: man descends to battle evil on 
behalf of a fellow human, man is losing when he tries to fight evil alone, man 
is rescued by a phoenix and rises triumphantly.  (The phoenix has appeared 
in Christian symbolism for centuries, due to its death/resurrection 
characteristics. Traditional Christian theology holds that you die with Christ 
and you rise with Christ, which you can sure overlay on that CoS scene with 
ease....) 

The stuff is there, all right. But you are right in that it is getting more overt, esp 
in OoP. The theme that Harry is defined by his choices and not necc by 
predestination has been explored elsewhere -- and even now, despite that 
prophecy, he would be free to walk away from the fight, to hide as long as 
possible, and let LV have a free rein. The choice is his. He doesn't have to 
subscribe to all this prophecy stuff. Some belief systems endorse the notion of 
predestination, some are more choice-oriented, and it will be interesting to 
see where JKR ultimately goes with this. But you are right --- the whole idea of 
love as a force that can be used as a tool to conquer evil is very overt by this 
point. Also the whole 'beyond the veil' thing, that souls go on after death... is 
much, much more strongly stated in OoP than previous books. 
All that stuff is going to resonate positively with some and repel others. (I also 
think that teachers using these books in public schools need to start reading 
them pretty closely and deciding whether they are truly appropriate for use in 
that setting.)

Still, considering that there are over 10k people on this list, and this hasn't 
been a huge topic of discussion here in the past -- I think you have had to 
stick the right glasses on in order to see this in the books, at least until OoP. I 
think it's been possible just to read them as fun stories, let the symbolism go 
right past you -- and I think a lot of people, kids and adults, can and will 
continue to enjoy them on that level. (Again, depending on what happens in 
6&7....)

Re your protest that she ought to be more clear about her intentions -- that's a 
fair criticism. But given in Western culture the idea that "intelligent/rational 
Christian" is seen as an oxymoron, it's hard to blame JKR for not advertising 
this stuff. It's a different world than Tolkein's and Lewis' (and even LOTR was 
not interpreted much as religious until he started giving interviews after their 
publication -- a lot of critics did not see it on first reading, apparently). I'm not 
surprised JKR wants to keep it somewhat under the radar, both in public 
interviews and in the texts themselves, if her goal is to have the books as 
widely read as possible. (If subversive religion is indeed what she is 
intentionally doing, which is still somewhat debatable -- books 6&7 will 
confirm that for sure, or blow the theory sky high.) But books ascribing to other 
world views don't necc come with labels either. For example, there aren't any 
big stickers on the Artemis Fowl stories or Pullman's "Dark Materials" series to 
tell you before launching into them that they are books with a humanist/
materialist worldview (one that rejects the notion of a soul or any transcendent 
dimension). (Pullman's books are really well-written, also -- technically better 
crafted than the Potter books, IMHO.)

Anyway -- I appreciate your comments, your critical thinking, and your 
willingness to look deeper into the philosophy/intent behind the plotline of the 
HP stories. I am enjoying our discussion.

urghiggi, Chgo