Umbridge's Rape (Was: Is Umbridge a Half-Breed???)

[jwcpgh]

No: HPFGUIDX 78222


<a bunch of snips> 
Jsmgleaner continues:
> My point is that JKR uses Umbridge to place her readers in the 
> position of acting like Barty Crouch, Sr., throwing important 
> ethical boundaries out the window in order to fight evil on 
> its own terms. Just as Crouch allows aurors to use the illegal 
> curses and throws suspects into prison without trial (Sirius), 
> readers are suddenly forced to confront their own reactions to an 
> ostensibly bad character who has done wrong but is taken down for 
> it, but not within a justice system.
> 
> Talisman rebuts:
> You've got the wrong end of it here.  
> Crouch was working within the wizard justice system.  And, I hate 
to 
> tell you this, but Crouchian justice is going on at this very 
> minute, in the real world, for the same reasons, and under the 
guise 
> of legitimate systems.
> 

Laura:  

No, I don't think Crouch was working within the system.  He (as is 
indeed going on at this very minute in the real world) decided, on 
his own, to suspend the laws that were in place and no one was able 
or willing to stop him.  (Where was DD?)  This, of course, goes back 
to the question of check and balances in the WW, which we are unable 
to resolve with the evidence we currently have.  But they sure don't 
seem to work too darn well.

Now Talisman again:
> JKR is always blasting sacred ideological fallacies.  And, if you 
> look a little closer, you'll see that she is not arguing for the 
> supremacy of the entrenched legal system over natural justice. 
> Crouch, Sr. is a very good example of justice systems gone wrong.  
> So is Umbridge. (Nor is she arguing for vigilantism as shown, e.g., 
> in the Shrieking Shack scene of PoA.  Look for a more dialectical 
> meditation á la Melville's "Billy Budd.")  

Laura:

What exactly do you mean by natural justice?  Imo, revenge is 
natural; justice isn't.  Justice takes constant self-control (both 
personally and societally).  Justice requires that we understand what 
revenge does to an individual and to society as a whole, and that, 
having gained that understanding, we reject "what is easy" for "what 
is right"-and what is more civilized.  If you believe in God, it's 
reaching for that quality that is the more like God.  

Talisman:
> Rather, Crouch is to the greater wizarding community as Umbridge is 
> to the students.  In the extended analogy, the centaurs are to 
> Umbridge what Crouch, Jr. is to Crouch, Sr.  Both are classic 
> examples of the poetic justice that evil calls down upon itself by 
> its own actions.
> 
>  Umbridge's "punishment," whatever it was, was actually meted out 
> within a justice system, albeit a rather intolerant one.  "Our ways 
> are not yours, nor are our laws." (Magorian to Hagrid, 698)
  
Laura:
Again, the punishment she gets from the centaurs is for the 
violations she committed against them, not for the things she did in 
the school.  If you'd taken her out of Hogwarts the day she arrived 
and dropped her in the Forest and she'd encountered the centaurs, she 
would have behaved the same way.  Hubris, to be sure, but unconnected 
with Hogwarts.  

I guess that you can see any punishment a character gets as "poetic" 
justice, in that that character deserved it, no matter who dishes it 
out.  But it's not justice the way we understand it in everyday life, 
where the aggrieved party gets to make his/her case in the public 
forum, the accused gets to defend him/herself and neutral 
representatives of the society decide on the course of action to be 
taken.  

Talisman:

> Nonetheless, JKR clearly shows us that it is Umbridge's unabated 
> persecution of the D.A. and blind bigotry--reiterated as she stomps 
> off to the forest, and continued to the point of hurling insults, 
> threats and spells at the centaurs (with the Classical Greek hubris 
> that signals impending judgment) that triggers her fall.     
> 
>  Unfortunately, most of us think the cosmic scales fell a little 
> short.  Hence the clamor for Azkaban, etc.
> 
> I personally expected Umbridge to be stomped into toad jelly.  I 
was 
> quite disappointed to see her toddling out on Dumbledore's arm.   
On 
> the other hand, I don't want her to "get more" in Book 6 or 7, 
> because I'm hoping never to hear of her again.   

Laura:

I can't say as I blame you.  We Jews have a saying about Hitler-"may 
his memory be erased".  Umbridge isn't quite in that league, but the 
idea is that the worst punishment is for the world to act as though 
you've never been.   That would certainly be fitting for Umbridge...